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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by skatesindreams View Post
    What about these "therapists" who pander continually to religious groups and claim to be able to "change" the sexual orientation of someone?
    Some well-known figures - like ( Rev.) Rex Haggard - and others - claim "healings".

    IMO, these people and their claims damage the progress made toward scientific discovery, understanding and tolerance about sexual orientation and gender issues.
    I totally agree, but those people are all operating on their own for the most part (some of the "therapists" may have jobs at legitimate medical institutions or clinics). What I was getting at was that Reker's work was done at a university and funded by the government, and thanks to better ethical review he would probably not be able to get that kind of support or legitimacy now.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post

    Why would you (or anyone else) want to do this?





    Which implication are you referring to?
    You don't want a restaurant server's sex to be visible to me or anyone else with your false equivalency that observing masculine or feminine traits that emerge physically after puberty is somehow a perverted interest in another person's sexual organs. How do we accomplish that other than hiding the post pubescent physical attributes of biological sex?

    Whenever groups start trying to do that, inevitably it seems to be the physical attributes of females that are considered problematic. Example:

    http://worldpulse.com/magazine/artic...easts?page=0,1

    Just as in terms of stereotypical gender behavior, the deep seated fear of boys playing with "girls" toys demonstrates. It is that which is considered female --whether it is the nonnegotiable physical traits or those activities and interests that society has classified as feminine--that is deemed objectionable for males or for everyone.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Civic View Post
    Several posters have blamed Kirk Murphy's mother for allowing her son to be abused in this manner. What about his father? What man beats his child hard enough to raise welts on his body just because some psychologist says so? And not to make any excuses for George Rekers, but did he realize at the time how severely Kirk's father was beating him for racking up red chips?
    Whoops, I didn't catch that it was the father who did the beatings. Since he isn't mentioned elsewhere in the story, I didn't know if he was in the picture. But now that I know, of course I'm just as upset at him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    That's what happens when therapy isn't regulated properly. I just can't understand why psychologists aren't regulated properly like doctors. Clearly, self-regulation has proven to be insufficient.
    Therapists are regulated in most, perhaps all, states. For instance, Dr. Phil was stripped of his professional license for having a sexual relationship with a patient. That didn't stop him from making millions off providing questionable advice, but it did prevent him from having a private practice.

    I don't know the criteria for revoking a therapist's license. It probably varies by state, and I don't know if any states outlaw therapists who promote this kind of abuse. But licensing is done by state, and the Reker followers are probably more likely to live in states with a large anti-homosexual population and hence a state licensing board that wouldn't outlaw such practices.

    In the Murphy case, this was a university research study. Today all studies need ethics board approval.

    Quote Originally Posted by skatesindreams View Post
    What about these "therapists" who pander continually to religious groups and claim to be able to "change" the sexual orientation of someone?
    Some well-known figures - like ( Rev.) Rex Haggard - and others - claim "healings".
    Good point. Licensing mostly concerns insurance payment qualification and wording. States may prohibit an unlicensed person from calling themselves and advertising themselves as a therapist or a psychologist. But it doesn't prevent someone from performing Reker's therapies as long as they don't officially call it therapy.
    Last edited by Gazpacho; 06-08-2011 at 10:34 PM.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    You don't have to hide a child's biological sex from the world to do that.
    I'm not sure if this statement and the posts that followed in response to it were spurred by my point about the 'genderless' child. It seemed not, but if it was I must clarify that I said nothing about hiding a child's biological sex.

    Gender and sex are not the same thing. Your biological sex is what you are born with, whereas gender is an interpretation of that sex - the values, roles, and behaviours which are associated with it and can be imposed on it. Pink and dolls for little girls and blue and toy cars for little boys is one of the simplest examples - there is nothing biological about the association. And countless other associations pile up as children grow up, creating expectations and viewpoints regarding gender that can be limiting and damaging.

    Interpretations of gender become myths of gender, which deeply informs and guides how we live and how we perceive men and women. Many such myths are falsely presented and accepted as biologically based. And they are so deeply encoded in the collective conscious that people don't stand back and question the research, which is often biased and flawed. So they continue to flourish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter G
    Why can't we treat people as people instead of "owner of a penis/vagina"?
    Unfortunately we are so heavily socialized to view people in terms of their gender that gender often comes before personhood - actions, behaviours and thoughts are attributed to whether a person is male or female.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazpacho View Post
    Whoops, I didn't catch that it was the father who did the beatings. Since he isn't mentioned elsewhere in the story, I didn't know if he was in the picture. But now that I know, of course I'm just as upset at him.
    I got the feeling that the father may have passed away, since there was no current mention of him (although I may be wrong). But yes, the father is absolutely to blame here--maybe even primarily to blame.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    Just as in terms of stereotypical gender behavior, the deep seated fear of boys playing with "girls" toys demonstrates. It is that which is considered female --whether it is the nonnegotiable physical traits or those activities and interests that society has classified as feminine--that is deemed objectionable for males or for everyone.
    Well, that seems to be a mostly modern societal attribute. The much more typical pattern is to severely repress, or even make illegal, females from anything other than strictly female behavior. People were very afraid that their daughter be anything but feminine. It's only recently that being a tomboy was almost a bragging characteristic.

    When my daughter attended a week-long summer camp at a historical village, the girls were forbidden to run, or whistle, or raise their voices, play physical games. They had to behave as typical girls in 1850.

    And now, in practice, most people's actions that are gender neutral for their children are actually just discouraging girls from acting on traditional roles. Being girly is bad, no matter what your anatomy is.
    ‎"You emerge victorious from the maze you've been travelling in." Oct 21,2012- Best Fortune Cookie Ever!

  7. #47
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    [Charitable organization plug]
    http://www.thetrevorproject.org/ is a great organization for anyone who wants to support the cause of suicide prevention in the LGBT community.
    [/Charitable organization plug]

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjblue View Post

    And now, in practice, most people's actions that are gender neutral for their children are actually just discouraging girls from acting on traditional roles. Being girly is bad, no matter what your anatomy is.
    Yes, and what message does that send to girls who *gasp* WANT to be girly? Heck, what does it say that boys who show an interest in "girly" toys are discouraged from playing with them, while girls who play with "boy" toys are told that's good and girl toys are bad?

    Then just to make it more fun, girls hit pre-teen/teen age and are promptly hit with the message that no, you shouldn't have been playing with Barbie--but now you need to DRESS like a tart. (And by the time you hit your twenties, the culture says you better be taking Cosmo's advice seriously and acting like one, too, or you're a closet case who liked playing with toy trucks instead of Barbie, what was WRONG with you...that, or you WANT sex? You're either a whore or you're a mindless tool of the patriarchy, why do you care about pleasing some male?)

    Basically, girls can't win, no matter who's running the show.

  9. #49

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    And here I was thinking the "William Has a Doll" track on Free to Be You and Me--an album that was HUGELY popular in the US in the 1970s--had taken care of a lot of that "'feminine' boy = bad" crapola.

  10. #50

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    I teach Pre-K and the boys in my class love to go into the Pretend area and play house. They play with the dolls, pretend to discipline them and dress them and they dress up in dress up clothing, including dresses. At first we had some parents make remarks and give strange looks but now they accepted it for what it is, imaginative play and a way for a child to express what is happening in their world.

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by LilJen View Post
    And here I was thinking the "William Has a Doll" track on Free to Be You and Me--an album that was HUGELY popular in the US in the 1970s--had taken care of a lot of that "'feminine' boy = bad" crapola.

    I loved that track and it's so true what it says at the end that William has a doll but one day he will be a father too and needs to know how to dress his baby and love his baby and take care of his baby.

  12. #52
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    Anderson Cooper's doing this in 3 parts. Here is part 1 from last night. Scroll down the page to see the video.

    http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/
    3539 and counting.

    Slightly Wounding Banana list cont: MacMadame.

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    Yes, and what message does that send to girls who *gasp* WANT to be girly? Heck, what does it say that boys who show an interest in "girly" toys are discouraged from playing with them, while girls who play with "boy" toys are told that's good and girl toys are bad?

    Then just to make it more fun, girls hit pre-teen/teen age and are promptly hit with the message that no, you shouldn't have been playing with Barbie--but now you need to DRESS like a tart. (And by the time you hit your twenties, the culture says you better be taking Cosmo's advice seriously and acting like one, too, or you're a closet case who liked playing with toy trucks instead of Barbie, what was WRONG with you...that, or you WANT sex? You're either a whore or you're a mindless tool of the patriarchy, why do you care about pleasing some male?)

    Basically, girls can't win, no matter who's running the show.
    For sure the stacks are still loaded against us. But, parenting can support or ease girl's development of a strong and authentic identity. There's nothing wrong with being a girly girl - it doesn't make you less of a person - but it needs to be an authentic rather than imposed identity.

    I had an unpleasant reminder of gendering recently when my pregnant niece told me she was happy to be having a boy rather than a girl because she and her sister (her one sibling) had grown up in a girl's world and boy's world was so different. The implication was that boy's world was somehow better, which was a strange view coming from a young woman who has PhD in education, a great career and a wonderful husband. I would have hoped she was more enlightened, but then my sister's gender views have obviously influenced her.

    Ultimately boys and girls live in the same world. It is up to us whether we want to divide it along lines of gender, especially when we are parents to the young.

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjblue View Post
    Well, that seems to be a mostly modern societal attribute. The much more typical pattern is to severely repress, or even make illegal, females from anything other than strictly female behavior. People were very afraid that their daughter be anything but feminine. It's only recently that being a tomboy was almost a bragging characteristic.

    When my daughter attended a week-long summer camp at a historical village, the girls were forbidden to run, or whistle, or raise their voices, play physical games. They had to behave as typical girls in 1850.

    And now, in practice, most people's actions that are gender neutral for their children are actually just discouraging girls from acting on traditional roles. Being girly is bad, no matter what your anatomy is.
    Someone should have told this to Laura Ingles. Little House on the Prairie often showed her running down hills and falling over, poor clumsy thing.
    I guess the hard thing for a lot of people to accept is why God would allow me to go running through their yards, yelling and spinning around.


  15. #55
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    I never understood the whole "you must act this way if you area girl, and this way if you are a boy." Ok so what if you exhibit a different phenotype, than your genotype? What if you're XX but developed masculine (Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia) or XY but developed as a girl(Androgen Insensitivity)? I wonder what these people who try to make someone act a certain way, would do if presented with that situation.

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    You don't want a restaurant server's sex to be visible to me or anyone else with your false equivalency that observing masculine or feminine traits that emerge physically after puberty is somehow a perverted interest in another person's sexual organs. How do we accomplish that other than hiding the post pubescent physical attributes of biological sex?
    I don't know how you even began to get that from PeterG's post at all

    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    Just as in terms of stereotypical gender behavior, the deep seated fear of boys playing with "girls" toys demonstrates. It is that which is considered female --whether it is the nonnegotiable physical traits or those activities and interests that society has classified as feminine--that is deemed objectionable for males or for everyone.
    But others upthread have pointed out the example of Shiloh Jolie-Pitt where a girl dressing in boys clothes and being criticised for being a "tomboy" suggests that it isn't just about male children being effeminate and female being bad, it's simply about adults being affronted by children not conforming to their biological gender stereotypes, a judgment they would not be able to make if they do not know what sex the child is.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozzisk8tr View Post
    Someone should have told this to Laura Ingles. Little House on the Prairie often showed her running down hills and falling over, poor clumsy thing.
    Uh, they didn't have blow-dried mullets in the 1870s, either. (The TV show is...less than period-accurrate.)

    But a better idea of 'typical girl activities', or at least those encouraged, would be to get a books of children's activities aimed at girls or boys--I have a reprint of one from the later nineteenth century. Girl activities are generally less physical and more...I don't want to say creative, but things like organized plays or puppet shows, word games, going on 'nature walks' with the intent of learning to identify and press/preserve flowers and plants, while the boys tend to be directed more to things like building and physicaly compeititive games. And both books have things we'd flip out over now--for example a fun party game for girls involving LEAD DIVINATION--yes, exactly what it says on the tin, little girls using molten lead poured into cold water as a method of fortune telling at parties for ten-year-olds. You know, for kids! And boys are supposed to go out and trap animals, and both genders are expected to do things like collect bird eggs and other natural specimens we know now to leave alone. Girls' physical games tended to emphasize gracefulness and eye-hand coordination, boys of a comparable age were usually aimed at target-oriented or speed/strength games (which makes sense to a point as they're behind girls as far as fine motor skills go. And by the time they reached ages we would consider normal for more organized skill sports, they usually had real work to do.)

  18. #58
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    Part 2 from Anderson Cooper. They catch up with Dr. Reker on this one.

    http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/
    3539 and counting.

    Slightly Wounding Banana list cont: MacMadame.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    Ultimately boys and girls live in the same world. It is up to us whether we want to divide it along lines of gender, especially when we are parents to the young.


    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    But others upthread have pointed out the example of Shiloh Jolie-Pitt where a girl dressing in boys clothes and being criticised for being a "tomboy" suggests that it isn't just about male children being effeminate and female being bad, it's simply about adults being affronted by children not conforming to their biological gender stereotypes, a judgment they would not be able to make if they do not know what sex the child is.
    Interesting how her parents are so androgynous...
    It's official. I am madly in love with Meryl Davis.

  20. #60

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    Part 2 from Anderson Cooper. They catch up with Dr. Reker on this one.

    http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/

    It's a shame that Kirk Murphy seemingly didn't get the "unconditional" love that his sister talks about in the last minute of the interview; and was put into this experiment by his parents.
    Whatever their "good intentions" were; they must accept their share of the responsibility for what happened to their son.
    Last edited by skatesindreams; 06-09-2011 at 05:33 PM. Reason: to add link

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