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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    If that child is female, what message is she being sent by being told that her femaleness is something that must be hidden? Particularly as her brothers' sex was not hidden.
    Girls are victims and chosing to play in a femnine way if you're biologically female is something to be ashamed of?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Bad enough that Reker was promoting this twisted "therapy", but even worse that he was a hypocrite on top of this. I didn't realize until I read to the end of the story that he was the anti-gay crusader who claimed that his rentboy was only hired to carry his vacation luggage.
    My late mother used to say that those that preach the hardest against something have either done it, are doing it or want to do it.

    What a horrible story...his brother and sister seem to be just as traumatized as he was...

    I blame the parents as well as the therapist. My parents raised kids during the same time period and would have never participated in this type of "therapy". We were spanked (not beaten) as kids because we did something wrong like lie, cheat or other types of bad behavior that deserved punishment.

    There is no sense in this genderless garbage either. Just let the kids develop their own likes, dislikes and interests. Sometimes my brother played Barbies with me and I played army men with him...we both turned out OK.

  3. #23
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    This kind of therapy can often result in various forms of neurosis developing, alongside many others negative psychological consequences.

    That's what happens when therapy isn't regulated properly. I just can't understand why psychologists aren't regulated properly like doctors. Clearly, self-regulation has proven to be insufficient.

    In many countries, "therapists" using those methods can practice with impunity.

    Germany is the only country I am aware of (there are more, I'm sure - or at least hope) where the regulations are suitably strict and such person wouldn't be allowed to practice legally.

    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    If that child is female, what message is she being sent by being told that her femaleness is something that must be hidden? Particularly as her brothers' sex was not hidden.
    You do realise that what is considered "female behaviour" is cultural and socialised, right?

    I do find it hilarious how terrified not knowing somebody's biological sex (what kind of biological sex though?) makes people. F****** gender binary. Blergh.

  4. #24
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    Several posters have blamed Kirk Murphy's mother for allowing her son to be abused in this manner. What about his father? What man beats his child hard enough to raise welts on his body just because some psychologist says so? And not to make any excuses for George Rekers, but did he realize at the time how severely Kirk's father was beating him for racking up red chips?

    Kirk's elder brother, Mark, describes a tense, fearful atmosphere in their home during this time. He dreaded seeing the chip count when he came home to school because he knew red chips meant his brother was going to get another beating. To his credit, he tried to protect his little brother, but he was just a child himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post



    You do realise that what is considered "female behaviour" is cultural and socialised, right?
    The child in question is not being told that his/her behavior is wrong or right, but that it is necessary to hide his/her biological sex. A vagina is not something that is cultural or socialized. It's something the half of the population born female just has. If that child is female, she is receiving the message that having female body parts is something that must be hidden from the outside world whereas her brothers, who have penises (again, not something socialized or cultural, people born male just have them), do not have to hide that.

    That's not healthy.

  6. #26
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    I agree with those who said that the child should know their sex...but should be allowed to play and dress however they want. Shiloh(Brad and Angelina's little girl) is a good example of letting the child express themselves how they want.

  7. #27
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    Anderson Cooper's show tonight (10pm EST) is about this.
    3539 and counting.

    Slightly Wounding Banana list cont: MacMadame.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Civic View Post
    Several posters have blamed Kirk Murphy's mother for allowing her son to be abused in this manner. What about his father? What man beats his child hard enough to raise welts on his body just because some psychologist says so? And not to make any excuses for George Rekers, but did he realize at the time how severely Kirk's father was beating him for racking up red chips?
    .
    I think people singled out the mother in their comments only because she is quoted extensively in the article in a way that leads you to believe she considers herself blameless and is 100% blaming Rekers. (And the dad isn't quoted at all in the article). Eg:
    I blame them for the way his life turned out," she said. "If one person causes another person's death, I don't care if it's 20 or 50 years later, it's the same as murder in my eyes.
    Not that folks think she is more blameworthy than the dad. Both of them are guilty in this, IMO, because you have to be an absolute moron to not realize there was something seriously wrong in what they were doing, on a number of levels, whether an expert was telling you to do it or not.

    Horrible.
    Disclaimer: The post contained herein represents the opinions of a fan and may or may not bear any relation to reality.

  9. #29

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    How dreadful and tragic.
    The parents are as much to blame as the "Doctor" for condoning and participating in this "therapy" --- never mind their responsibility for their own attitudes and actions.

    I hope that this report helps to end this sort of "behavior modification"/sexual identity alternation "therapy" forever.

  10. #30

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    Well, I hope the mother and father can sleep at night....I would not be able to.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazpacho View Post
    My comment about them damaging their children reflected not my personal opinion but rather some of the comments on the other FSU thread.
    My mistake. Thank you for clarifying.

    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    You don't have to hide a child's biological sex from the world to do that.
    Agreed. However, if you want the world to be a better one than the world Kirk Murphy experienced, you need to be part of making changes. Currently, our world has issues that need to be addressed around gender identity. Someone has to stand up and do something to bring the issue to people's attentions. Someone heroic, IMHO.

    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    Children can be raised in a perfectly healthy and natural way to do anything they want regardless of gender stereotypes without the publicity stunt that family is pulling.
    Your use of the words "publicity stunt" has a very judgemental tone, in my opinion. These parents are not doing this to win free diapers for a year. They don't want their own reality TV show. What they want is to see positive changes in the world so that their children have better lives.

    Imagine what our world would be like if more parents took similar stands to improve things for their children...
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  12. #32

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    Wow, this article is at once horrifying and depressing
    "Marge, if you're going to get mad at me every time I do something stupid, then I guess I'm just going to have to stop doing stupid things!" - Homer Simpson in the Mr. Plow episode

  13. #33
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    I blame the parents more than the therapy, myself. I didn't see any indication that Rekers suggested that negative discouragement consisted of beating the child until he had welts all over his back and buttocks. The therapy was clearly horrible and came from a dark place, but what the parents did was, IMO, much more horrifying and damaging. It may have resulted from the therapy, but the parents were the ones who decided to put him in therapy in the first place and then took it way too far.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    They're refusing to tell people the child's SEX. Sex is a biological fact, no matter what the brain believes or even what body parts you chop off or sew on or what clothes you wear.
    True, but as a co-worker, do you need to know if I have a penis or a vagina? If I am your server at a restaurant, is knowing my gender a requirement for me to serve you?

    Why does anyone need to know the gender of a child (or of an adult, for that matter)? Why can't we treat people as people instead of "owner of a penis/vagina"?

    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    ... don't avoid telling them or anyone else if they're male or female. That is going leave them screwed up and hopelessly confused.
    I don't think a child will be confused if a parent doesn't tell them if they are male or female. I am sure these parents have read books to all of their children about the human body, so each child will know very quickly if they are male or female.

    And what purpose does it serve for strangers to know if one's child is male or female? So they can buy the girl a pink dress and the boy a toy gun?
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  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    Why can't we treat people as people instead of "owner of a penis/vagina"?

  16. #36
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    Whether we like it or not, males and females are biologically different. For me and most post-pubescent females to not be visibly female would require surgical intervention. I could wear men's clothes, cut my hair short and try to lower my speaking voice, but without my (even below average sized) boobs being removed, there is still a tell-tale sign that I am female.

    I don't really like the implication that the fact that anyone is visibly biologically female is a fault of society that must be rectified. The implication of that notion is that there is something wrong with being biologically female and with having stereotypically feminine interests and traits and that brings us right back to the issue in the article that started this thread.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    Whether we like it or not, males and females are biologically different.
    Agreed. Boys have peepees and girls have vajayjays.

    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    For me and most post-pubescent females to not be visibly female would require surgical intervention. I could wear men's clothes, cut my hair short and try to lower my speaking voice, but without my (even below average sized) boobs being removed, there is still a tell-tale sign that I am female.


    Why would you (or anyone else) want to do this?

    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    I don't really like the implication that the fact that anyone is visibly biologically female is a fault of society that must be rectified. The implication of that notion is that there is something wrong with being biologically female and with having stereotypically feminine interests and traits and that brings us right back to the issue in the article that started this thread.


    Which implication are you referring to?
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    Trying to raise a "genderless" child simply means that you don't impose beliefs, values and myths about gender on your child. It's not damaging, it's liberating, because it gives children the freedom to be who they really are and a better chance to become well-rounded people. Girls can play with trucks if they like and boys can play with dolls. You can play ball with your daughters and your sons, and make cookies with your daughters and your sons. Good skills are learned in the process for both.

    Society genders children enough of its own and does a fair bit of damage in the process. Parents can helps their kids to deal with that or make it even harder.

    I'm also bothered by the notion that a boy who likes to play with dolls is going to grow up gay. And by the idea that effeminate = gay. There are plenty of heterosexual men with qualities deemed effeminate and plenty of gay men with qualities deemed macho. Those labels in themselves are damaging.


    It reminds me of the J.Crew episode of pink nail polish or the criticisms that the Jolie-Pitt couple gets for letting Shiloh wear boy clothes. You cannot foresee how a child will grow up to be based on the things they do as children. That's just it. They're children who are learning about the world and people do change over the course of their lives.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatesindreams View Post
    How dreadful and tragic.
    The parents are as much to blame as the "Doctor" for condoning and participating in this "therapy" --- never mind their responsibility for their own attitudes and actions.

    I hope that this report helps to end this sort of "behavior modification"/sexual identity alternation "therapy" forever.
    The only positive thing I could think about the article is that although Reker managed to do what he did at the time with government funding at a university, under current ethical review procedures - which a project like this would have to go through to get funding or to be conducted at a university - he would never be able to do this "research" or get it funded because it would never be approved.

    That doesn't mean that rogue "therapists" like him couldn't figure out some other way to do what they wanted to do, outside the university or with other funding. But at least now there are way better checks and balances on this sort of abuse passing as "research" than there were in the past.
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    What about these "therapists" who pander continually to religious groups and claim to be able to "change" the sexual orientation of someone?
    Some well-known figures - like ( Rev.) Rex Haggard - and others - claim "healings".

    IMO, these people and their claims damage the progress made toward scientific discovery, understanding and tolerance about sexual orientation and gender issues.

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