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  1. #141
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    kwanatic, one thing that I think helps is the fact that Leonova with Marakova got the third spot for the ladies at Worlds. So she (and Marakova) both have the opportunity to really cement themselves in as one of the Sochi hopefuls. More than that, Eliza and Adelina are still not age eligible for the 2012 Worlds, so they simultatenously have some breathing space. I'm not sure which skaters are eligible for Worlds, though, so I could be wrong about the breathing space.

  2. #142
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    ^^ Good point. I keep forgetting that Adelina, Liza T and Polina are eligible for the senior GP but not worlds. Earning that 3rd spot will really help Russia's chances next year. People ask what's the big deal about the US failing to earn that 3rd spot back and that's it: more skaters means more opportunities for experience and exposure to the judges, which will be critical in the race to Soichi.

  3. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    Why do some fans repeat over and over that Kwan was around a long time and Tara was not? This is so obvious it does not bear mentioning. Why do Kwan fans predictably go to pains to come up with explanations about why Tara had competitions so much easier than Michelle and nothing that applies to Michelle applies to Tara? We know some were traumatized that Michelle did not win in 1997 and 1998, but I worry that some of you rehash these explanations for public validation because you are not over it yet. Skaters' careers (and their children's careers) have been born and died since 1998! Some more objectivity from folks about Tara does not seem an unreasonable expectation 100 years later!

    I was not traumatized by Tara's win over Michelle in 1997 and 1998 and there is nothing to get over. In the 1997 US nationals I was actually excited that the jumping bean Tara beat the more refined and artistic Michelle. IMO 1998 was a toss up and largely determined by the skating order.

    I don't rehash out of trauma but because posters like you keep insisting that Tara faced the same amount of pressure as Michelle in 1998. There was no comparison where pressure/expectations were concerned, and Tara, admirable though she was, skated with less pressure and more freedom (like Sarah 4 years later). It's just a fact, so you are the one that's not being objective. Your comment about it being 100 years ago is so over the top that I am afraid you are the one losing objectivity here.

  4. #144

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    If you are going to judge amount of pressure based on the freedom with which one skates, what about Sasha in 2002? Was there so much more pressure on Sasha than there was on Sarah (or Tara in 98)? Sasha skated with zero freedom. And actually, Sarah was the bronze medalist and worlds. She had been touted as the next Tara since October when she beat Michelle and Irina at Skate America.

    I would agree that nobody ever faced as much pressure as Michelle did during her long and challenging career, especially in 2002, but why would people think Tara had it so easy in 98?

  5. #145
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    Sasha actually skated very well at the 2002 Olympics. She made only one mistake, falling on a very difficult triple-triple she rarely tries or lands. She came 4th since she was a newbie and a much weaker skater than Kwan and Slutskaya at that point, so had no margin for error. If the Olympics werent in the U.S she probably would have been 5th behind Suguri anyway. I am surprised she was touted as such a big contender there.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Sasha actually skated very well at the 2002 Olympics. She made only one mistake, falling on a very difficult triple-triple she rarely tries or lands. She came 4th since she was a newbie and a much weaker skater than Kwan and Slutskaya at that point, so had no margin for error. If the Olympics werent in the U.S she probably would have been 5th behind Suguri anyway. I am surprised she was touted as such a big contender there.
    Both lutzes were also slightly double-footed. She still got a few ordinals above Sarah Hughes for that skate IIRC, and not from the North American judges...

  7. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Sasha actually skated very well at the 2002 Olympics. She made only one mistake, falling on a very difficult triple-triple she rarely tries or lands. She came 4th since she was a newbie and a much weaker skater than Kwan and Slutskaya at that point, so had no margin for error. If the Olympics werent in the U.S she probably would have been 5th behind Suguri anyway. I am surprised she was touted as such a big contender there.
    I'm not sure what you mean by much weaker, but Cohen was definitely strong (much stronger than Hughes in all respects!) and capable of beating Kwan/Slutskaya on merit - albeit not on reputation.

    Anyway, people on this board seem to have probs responding to comments while also staying on topic. At least relate your comments on Sasha and SLC back to Tara somehow! Maybe eventually we can get from there back to Leonova! LOL!

  8. #148
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    Cohen in 2002 was slow, had weak edges for a top skater, had choppy crossovers, and her Carmen wasnt even well choreographed at all. She was still a very good skater but definitely not on par with Kwan, Slutskaya, or even Hughes yet. She improved a huge amount after moving to Tarasova in 2003.

    I dont know how you can say she was superior to Hughes in all respects at that point. Hughes was a much stronger and more consistent jumper, had much better basics and flow (at the time), and had a much better choreographed long program. Sasha was pretty competitive in the short already, but not in the long.

    Salt Lake was the only event of the season where Sasha finished in front of even Suguri or Butyrskaya (unless you count Maria's DNF at Worlds).

  9. #149

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    Sasha > Leonova

  10. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I dont know how you can say she was superior to Hughes in all respects at that point. Hughes was a much stronger and more consistent jumper, had much better basics and flow (at the time), and had a much better choreographed long program.
    The distinguished Russian judge disagreed with this. She gave Hughes the 10th place ordinal in the SP and 4th place in the FS. This was about right. Your account is revisionist and slightly inaccurate.


    Quote Originally Posted by AndyWarhol View Post
    Sasha > Leonova
    Sasha was definitely > Leonova.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyWarhol View Post
    Sasha > Leonova
    If you are talking about the number of falls per competition, then definitely Sasha > Leonova

  12. #152

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    Both Sasha & Sarah had serious technique flaws in 2002. Sasha later made many improvements & although her speed & edges were never the best in the world, she had many other assets, like her spins & spirals, & her jumps improved. Sarah did not improve over 2002, in fact she rapidly degressed. Tenth place was rather harsh for her Oly SP but IMO that was more accurate than most of the other marks. She should have been buried after the short.

  13. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    Both Sasha & Sarah had serious technique flaws in 2002. Sasha later made many improvements & although her speed & edges were never the best in the world, she had many other assets, like her spins & spirals, & her jumps improved. Sarah did not improve over 2002, in fact she rapidly degressed. Tenth place was rather harsh for her Oly SP but IMO that was more accurate than most of the other marks. She should have been buried after the short.
    Sarah was 4th after the short at the 2002 Oly, so I am not sure who you are referring to.

  14. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    If you are going to judge amount of pressure based on the freedom with which one skates, what about Sasha in 2002? Was there so much more pressure on Sasha than there was on Sarah (or Tara in 98)? Sasha skated with zero freedom. And actually, Sarah was the bronze medalist and worlds. She had been touted as the next Tara since October when she beat Michelle and Irina at Skate America.

    I would agree that nobody ever faced as much pressure as Michelle did during her long and challenging career, especially in 2002, but why would people think Tara had it so easy in 98?
    No, I am not judging the amount of pressure based on how much freedom the skater has in the performance- you seem to misinterpret a lot. The pressure evident from the start of the competition, before the actual skating even begins. Case in point- Midori Ito in 92. You did not have to wait until she got on the ice to know that she was under tremendous pressure. Michelle was such a huge favorite in 1998 that we knew there was a lot of pressure on her. Nobody said Tara had it 'easy'- you are putting words in my mouth. Tara had far less pressure than Michelle. We are talking of relative amount of pressure here. It's like Kristi having less pressure than Midori in 92, even though Kristi was the reigning world champ then, or Irina facing more pressure in 2006 than Shizuka, who was not expected to win the gold. Shiz did not skate with freedom, but she did have less pressure than Irina. We are talking of 'more vs. less' here, not 'pressure vs. no pressure'. I hope that's clear.

  15. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Sarah was 4th after the short at the 2002 Oly, so I am not sure who you are referring to.
    taf2002 and TheIronLady were referring to the Russian judge had Hughes in tenth place after the short. Another three gave her a fourth place ordinal, four others the fifth place ordinal, and one other had her in sixth place.
    Last edited by falling_dance; 06-15-2011 at 04:05 PM.

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    The distinguished Russian judge disagreed with this. She gave Hughes the 10th place ordinal in the SP and 4th place in the FS. This was about right. Your account is revisionist and slightly inaccurate.
    I never said Sarah's short program in SLC wasnt mediocre. In fact I have said that many times myself, and said she should have been lower than 4th which would have lost her the gold overall. However Sarah was by far a better long program skater than Cohen at the time and her LP was superior to what Cohen would have been capable of at the time in many ways. I am not even a Hughes fan but it is laughable to say Cohen had it all over Hughes by 2002, she was not that good yet.

    Suguri was even a better skater than Cohen in 2002. The only time Cohen beat Suguri in the 00-01 or 01-02 seasons was at the 2002 Olympics which was only due to home ice advantage and the hype over the U.S women at this event probably. That plus Suguri skating very early in the short, thus being screwed over in the short program results, and not being in the final flight for the long program. Since her long program was superior to Cohen's and probably would have beaten her with both in the final flight.

    BTW the Russian judge at this event was quite obviously corrupt.

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    Seriously though, back to Alena Leonova...

    I think it's good she had such a good showing at nationals and worlds this year. With the newer girls coming into the senior ranks this year, I think it's good that Alena has made a case for herself. But I'm really wondering how her federation will treat her next season? It's clear that Adelina, Liza T, Polina and the other Russian Babies are the ones who are being prepped for Soichi in 2014. I wonder if Alena, who despite only being senior for a handful of years is rather "old" by skating standards, will be pushed aside to make way? Adelina, Liza T and the rest need the experience and once they get it, they'll be tough to beat.

    That's always the case when younger skaters come up. A lot of it has to do with the skaters but some of his has to do with what support the federation is giving. To me, Alena was kind of a place holder; someone to get Russia's name back in the mix after a 5 year hiatus...maybe they'll expect her to pass the reins to the newbies. Point is, competition in Russia is going to be some of the toughest in the world. That kind of home competition breeds tough competitors on the international scene...that's why the US was so competitive for so long and why Japan has had so many top ladies...
    I wonder about Makarova too. What happens with her also.

  18. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by falling_dance View Post
    taf2002 and TheIronLady were referring to the Russian judge had Hughes in tenth place after the short. Another three gave her a fourth place ordinal, four others the fifth place ordinal, and one other had her in sixth place.
    OK, thanks.

  19. #159

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    I'm anxiously awaiting the return of Anna Ovcherova after sitting out last season due to foot surgery. Anna turned 15 this past March 16 and should be Sr Worlds eligible for the 2011/12 season, right?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Ovcharova

    Dick Button Historical Quote of the Month: "Good for you, Lucinda Ruh!"

  20. #160

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    The distinguished Russian judge disagreed with this. She gave Hughes the 10th place ordinal in the SP and 4th place in the FS. This was about right. Your account is revisionist and slightly inaccurate.
    Without knowing the exact ordinals, the rest of the panel disagreed with this. Because she did win.

    Hughes, whether you personally liked her skating or not, had the best performance of the night and that is why she won.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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