Page 7 of 9 FirstFirst ... 56789 LastLast
Results 121 to 140 of 180
  1. #121
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    1,520
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    In that sense, Tara was very lucky. Because she was so young and became the favorite underdog (if that makes sense) behind Michelle, she didn't have to face that amount of pressure--it was still on Michelle to win each time, but Tara was the one waiting in the wings. She was able to coast... Plus, when you're that young, stuff doesn't register...the enormity of winning a world or Olympic title is a bit lost on you because you're just so excited to be there in the first place.

    Tara was a flash in the pan skater: she showed up suddenly, won, and left just as quickly. Two years, in and done. What she accomplished was very impressive at such a young age (part of the reason she was able to accomplish it IMO) but when you talk about great skaters and competitors in terms of history, I doubt if Tara would rank among Dorothy, Peggy, Katarina, Kristi, Michelle, Irina, Yu-Na or Mao...she just wasn't around long enough to make any significant impression on the sport.
    Why do some fans repeat over and over that Kwan was around a long time and Tara was not? This is so obvious it does not bear mentioning. Why do Kwan fans predictably go to pains to come up with explanations about why Tara had competitions so much easier than Michelle and nothing that applies to Michelle applies to Tara? We know some were traumatized that Michelle did not win in 1997 and 1998, but I worry that some of you rehash these explanations for public validation because you are not over it yet. Skaters' careers (and their children's careers) have been born and died since 1998! Some more objectivity from folks about Tara does not seem an unreasonable expectation 100 years later!
    Last edited by TheIronLady; 06-10-2011 at 06:56 PM.

  2. #122
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,257
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Michelle was actually lucky she didnt win in 1998. If she had she might well have turned pro (not certain but quite possible) and not been anywhere near the legend she is today. Of course still a legend in a larger way than Tara currently is, since she would always be remembered for her performance at the 98 Nationals, 96 Worlds, 98 Olympics (had she won) but not anything like she currently in with such dominance and longevity in the sport. And had she won in 1998 she would have for sure been gone after 2002, win or lose, which would have prevented things like her 9 National titles, 9 World medals, etc...

  3. #123
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Somewhere, beyond the sea...
    Posts
    1,883
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    Why do some fans repeat over and over that Kwan was around a long time and Tara was not?
    Because she wasn't. I'm talking amateur status...not professionally...

    Michelle Kwan competed at the senior level from 1993 until 2005. She was on the podium at every event she entered from the 1994-'95 season until her final appearance at worlds in 2004-'05 where she placed 4th. Michelle competed at the senior level for 12 years.Reference

    Tara Lipinski competed at the senior level from 1995 until 1998. She didn't compete on the senior GP during the 1995-'96 season and was 15th at senior worlds. After that season, Tara was on the podium in every event she entered during the 1996-'97 and 1997-'98 seasons. Tara competed at the senior level for 3 years. Reference

    Simple math tells us that 12 > 3 which means Michelle competed longer than Tara. The facts are there: Tara was competitive at the senior level for 2 years before going pro...now if you're counting Tara competing professionally (which I don't...) then you can add 2 or 3 years to that...still doesn't change the outcome though...


    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    Why do Kwan fans predictably go to pains to come up with explanations about why Tara had competitions so much easier than Michelle...?
    I never said Tara had it easier. I simply said that given that the focus was largely on Michelle 80% of the time, Tara was able to skate with less pressure on her shoulders and, obviously, that worked out well for her. Michelle was the favorite. During the 1996-97 season, she was the world champ and all eyes were on her. That pressure got to her at nationals and a bit at worlds as well. Tara was able to skate well in both situations and won. 1998 after winning SA, Michelle went out with a stress fracture. 1998 nationals, she was the focus again b/c no one knew how she'd perform. Still, the pressure of defending the title got to Tara, she made mistakes, Michelle won in grand fashion and reasserted herself as the one to beat. Michelle went into Nagano as the fav, Tara as the possible upset (ie. underdog).

    Tara had to work and compete; I'm not saying she was able to skip thru each competition with no worries whatsoever, but not being the main focus had its advantages. It's a little easier to breathe without that bullseye on your back...

  4. #124
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    1,520
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    Because she wasn't. I'm talking amateur status...not professionally...

    Michelle Kwan competed at the senior level from 1993 until 2005. She was on the podium at every event she entered from the 1994-'95 season until her final appearance at worlds in 2004-'05 where she placed 4th. Michelle competed at the senior level for 12 years.Reference

    Tara Lipinski competed at the senior level from 1995 until 1998. She didn't compete on the senior GP during the 1995-'96 season and was 15th at senior worlds. After that season, Tara was on the podium in every event she entered during the 1996-'97 and 1997-'98 seasons. Tara competed at the senior level for 3 years. Reference

    Simple math tells us that 12 > 3 which means Michelle competed longer than Tara. The facts are there: Tara was competitive at the senior level for 2 years before going pro...now if you're counting Tara competing professionally (which I don't...) then you can add 2 or 3 years to that...still doesn't change the outcome though...

    ..
    I have to point out that you just wrote another three paragraphs to make a point (again!) that I already noted is rather obvious and so well understood by all of us that I don't see why it needs discussed. Kwan was around longer than any of the greats. Lipinski competed for barely longer than Oksana Baiul. It seems to me that some fans have an insecure desire to refight the battles of 1997 and 1998 that Kwan lost. Kwan would not think Tara was less of a competitor than herself.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post

    I never said Tara had it easier. I simply said that given that the focus was largely on Michelle 80% of the time, Tara was able to skate with less pressure on her shoulders and, obviously, that worked out well for her. Michelle was the favorite. During the 1996-97 season, she was the world champ and all eyes were on her. That pressure got to her at nationals and a bit at worlds as well. Tara was able to skate well in both situations and won. 1998 after winning SA, Michelle went out with a stress fracture. 1998 nationals, she was the focus again b/c no one knew how she'd perform. Still, the pressure of defending the title got to Tara, she made mistakes, Michelle won in grand fashion and reasserted herself as the one to beat. Michelle went into Nagano as the fav, Tara as the possible upset (ie. underdog).

    Tara had to work and compete; I'm not saying she was able to skip thru each competition with no worries whatsoever, but not being the main focus had its advantages. It's a little easier to breathe without that bullseye on your back...
    Thanks for this clarification. I think you are being fair here, and your clarification makes a good point that the media was picking favorites and trying to stir up storylines. So there were pressure differences at different times that each had to cope with. Anyway, Tara handled the pressure of being US champ in 97 much better than say, Jill Trenary in 87, Tiffany Chin in 1985, or, one could argue, Roslyn Sumners in 1984.
    Last edited by TheIronLady; 06-10-2011 at 11:14 PM.

  5. #125
    Argle-Bargle-ist
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Age
    50
    Posts
    8,564
    vCash
    875
    Rep Power
    76283
    How interesting that a thread about Leonova and Slutskaya has turned into...

    ...a thread about Tara Lipinski and Michelle Kwan.

    Has this ever happened on FSU before?
    It's official. I am madly in love with Meryl Davis.

  6. #126
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,257
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    Anyway, Tara handled the pressure of being US champ in 97 much better than say, Jill Trenary in 87, Tiffany Chin in 1985, or, one could argue, Roslyn Sumners in 1984.
    Sumners was expected, atleast by Americans, to win in 84 though which as mentioned before Tara wasnt in 98 especialy. The presure on her in Sarajevo was much higher than Tara in 98, although that being said Tara is far and away a tougher and more reliable competitor than Sumners anyway. Tiffany was not the favorite to win Worlds in 85 but she was clearly the top American hope, and so they still put alot of pressure and hopes on her to win over the favorite Witt. Tara was not even top American for the 98 Olympics, despite being reigning World Champion, and not the one that was expected or hoped by her own country to win.

    Skaters like Sumners and Trenary are not considered mentally strong competitors, so it is to be expected Tara handles pressure them then atleast.

  7. #127

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    8,935
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    44601
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    How interesting that a thread about Leonova and Slutskaya has turned into...

    ...a thread about Tara Lipinski and Michelle Kwan.

    Has this ever happened on FSU before?
    No, I don't think it has. I guess there's a first time for everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    Why do some fans repeat over and over that Kwan was around a long time and Tara was not? This is so obvious it does not bear mentioning. Why do Kwan fans predictably go to pains to come up with explanations about why Tara had competitions so much easier than Michelle and nothing that applies to Michelle applies to Tara? We know some were traumatized that Michelle did not win in 1997 and 1998, but I worry that some of you rehash these explanations for public validation because you are not over it yet. Skaters' careers (and their children's careers) have been born and died since 1998! Some more objectivity from folks about Tara does not seem an unreasonable expectation 100 years later!
    Why does it bother you so much?

  8. #128
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    1,520
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by pollyanna View Post
    Why does it bother you so much?
    As I said, because it's lame that anyone felt the need to start talking about this. This was a thread about Leonova. That people bring up obvious truisms about Michelle Kwan and Lipinski -- in a Leonova thread-- suggests these posts are more therapy for still traumatized Kwan fans rather than thoughtful conversation or exchange about Lipinski or whatever relevant statements were made.

    I wonder if some fans are having insecurities because Tara is doing commentary and was mean to Leonova...lol

  9. #129

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    8,935
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    44601
    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    As I said, because it's lame that anyone felt the need to start talking about this. This was a thread about Leonova. That people bring up obvious truisms about Michelle Kwan and Lipinski -- in a Leonova thread-- suggests these posts are more therapy for still traumatized Kwan fans rather than thoughtful conversation or exchange about Lipinski or whatever relevant statements were made.

    I wonder if some fans are having insecurities because Tara is doing commentary and was mean to Leonova...lol
    If you allow it to bother you so much, why not just NOT read the thread? Simple, non?

  10. #130

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Some place competitive and athletic, but ultimately more like an audition than anything else.
    Posts
    7,792
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    19516
    Adding to the ignore list also works ...

  11. #131

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Infected with the joy of skating!!
    Posts
    10,551
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    14026
    Tara didn't have the pressure of being the favorite, but she probably had to resist being bitter at USFSA choosing MK over and over and basically ignoring her except to say she's not Michelle, lol.

    She never believed passing Michelle was impossible, regardless of USFSA's obvious preference, and she kept working her little hips off. (sorry, couldn't resist!) I find that emotional resiliance / optimism to be very admirable. I wish she hadn't injured herself, but I do admire her fighting spirit.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  12. #132
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,257
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I wish she hadnt been practicing that triple loop-triple loop which wrecked her hip. In an indirect way one could say Kwan ruined Tara's career perhaps even while losing to her most times at Tara's peak. By that I mean Tara knew the only way to beat Michelle, especialy a clean Michelle, was the triple loop-triple loop combination. If Michelle was not around Tara probably wouldnt have even bothered. Chen was past her prime and Slutskaya was in a major slump around the time she first rose to the top. She could have won with more standard jumps, and perhaps had a longer career be it in the amateur or pro ranks.

  13. #133
    Bountifully Enmeshed
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    At the Christmas Bizarre
    Posts
    38,161
    vCash
    250
    Rep Power
    46687
    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    I have to point out that you just wrote another three paragraphs to make a point (again!) that I already noted is rather obvious
    Sometimes people like to repeat themselves.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  14. #134

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Some place competitive and athletic, but ultimately more like an audition than anything else.
    Posts
    7,792
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    19516
    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    I have to point out that you just wrote another three paragraphs to make a point (again!) that I already noted is rather obvious and so well understood by all of us that I don't see why it needs discussed.
    I have to point out that you just wrote post after post to make a point (again!) that I and others already noted ad nauseam over the last decade is rather obvious and so well understood by all of us that I don't see why it needs to be discussed ...

    ... except to add support to my theory that all threads in the Figure Skating Universe are really about Michelle Kwan

    ... Maybe it should be a rule that one off season should be observed before participation in off season discussion.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 06-13-2011 at 06:12 AM.

  15. #135
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Somewhere, beyond the sea...
    Posts
    1,883
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I swear I'm not a bitter Kwan fan. Hindsight is 20/20 and Michelle not winning Olympic gold is probably the best thing that ever happen to her (and the USFSA to be honest). Her drive to win that gold medal pushed her through 3 quadrennials of competition and she won title after title after title after title. She never accomplished her goal of being an Olympic champion but she did herself one better: she became a legend...and I prefer it that way.

    So, sorry for repeating myself. The question of Tara being around for a "long time" prompted me to double check because, as I remembered, she came in quick and left out quick. I like quoting facts so when the opportunity presents itself, I can't help myself.

  16. #136
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    3,710
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I wish some of these American girls had Tara's competitive spirit. Say what you want about Tara but she was one tough cookie and wasn't intimidated by anyone. So different from the top american girls.

  17. #137
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    2,775
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    I wish some of these American girls had Tara's competitive spirit. Say what you want about Tara but she was one tough cookie and wasn't intimidated by anyone. So different from the top american girls.
    ITA with this 100%. You simply can't quantify the amount of pressure from one situation to the next, which is what several posters have tried to do re: Tara. The bottom line is: Tara blew the roof off of the rink in several instances on the biggest stages of her life and rarely flinched. I'd love to see some of our US girls have just an inkling of her guts and determination.

  18. #138
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Somewhere, beyond the sea...
    Posts
    1,883
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    ^^At 13, 14 and 15 years old, all of the current crop of ladies skated just like that: gutsy, fearless and determined. That's why everyone is scratching their heads right now because in the junior ranks, Mirai, Caroline, Ashley and Rachael kicked @$$! The US ladies swept the podium at jr. worlds twice (2007 - Zhang, Nagasu Wagner; 2008 - Flatt, Zhang, Nagasu), swept the JGPF in 2006/07 (Zhang, Wagner, Megan Oster), and top 2 at JGPF 2007/08 (Nagasu - 1st, Flatt - 2nd).

    I mention that to say, youth has its advantages especially in ladies' skating. When you're young, you don't over-think the situation; you just go out and do it. Plus, you're tiny. Your center of gravity is lower, you're faster, you can rotate faster and generally, jumping is easier. By the time puberty hits, things change. There's an adjustment that has to be made to a new height and weight--some of them don't make it through that adjustment.

    Caroline Zhang has clearly suffered the most from her body change. She was very tiny back in 2007, her first year senior and she did very well. Medaled in both of her GP events, came in 4th in the GPF, 4th at nationals and 2nd at jr. worlds. But that next season, she grew several inches and gained weight. Add that to her horrible technique and she's never been right since.

    Mirai grew so much by the time she hit puberty, her body had a hard time keeping up with itself and she ended up injured her entire first season senior. Rachael used to be really tiny and skinny, but puberty added a few pounds to her and seriously reduced her speed. For Ashley, I'm really thinking her body changes affected her ability to rotate, which is probably why she's frequently called for URs and 2-footed landings...

    To be so young and be allowed to compete at such a high level has it's advantages. Tara had barely hit puberty by the time she made it to Nagano--definitely before her growth spurt. Check out a podium picture of her sandwiched between Michelle and Chen Lu...she's like a good 4 inches shorter and 15-20 pounds lighter than both of them! Lol!

    I think that's one of the reasons age restrictions have been put in place when it comes to senior level skating. Back when Tara won, a lot of it had to do with losing clearly capable skaters to the pro-circuit (which was more attractive back then). Now, I think it's about keeping younger skaters in their place until they're mature enough to be considered a senior. Plus, it levels the playing field.

    It'd be great if the US girls could have maintained that fearless instinct they had when they were juniors...if they had, they'd be running things right now. Hopefully Christina Gao and Agnes Zawadski will shake things up for the US next season. Fingers crossed!

  19. #139
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Age
    30
    Posts
    4,972
    vCash
    1670
    Rep Power
    0
    Can we merge this thread with Off season chitchat: US Ladies (have at 'em! love 'em! etc.) and all the other Kwan threads.

  20. #140
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Somewhere, beyond the sea...
    Posts
    1,883
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    ^^ From what I understand, that'd be every thread on the forum! Lol! I'm done talking about Ms. Lipinski, I promise.

    Seriously though, back to Alena Leonova...

    I think it's good she had such a good showing at nationals and worlds this year. With the newer girls coming into the senior ranks this year, I think it's good that Alena has made a case for herself. But I'm really wondering how her federation will treat her next season? It's clear that Adelina, Liza T, Polina and the other Russian Babies are the ones who are being prepped for Soichi in 2014. I wonder if Alena, who despite only being senior for a handful of years is rather "old" by skating standards, will be pushed aside to make way? Adelina, Liza T and the rest need the experience and once they get it, they'll be tough to beat.

    That's always the case when younger skaters come up. A lot of it has to do with the skaters but some of his has to do with what support the federation is giving. To me, Alena was kind of a place holder; someone to get Russia's name back in the mix after a 5 year hiatus...maybe they'll expect her to pass the reins to the newbies. Point is, competition in Russia is going to be some of the toughest in the world. That kind of home competition breeds tough competitors on the international scene...that's why the US was so competitive for so long and why Japan has had so many top ladies...

Page 7 of 9 FirstFirst ... 56789 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •