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  1. #161

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelskates View Post

    I don't think Jazz got to choose for himself, I think he knew his parents views very early on, and adopted them because that's what he knew.
    Then that makes him like every other child in the world. Anyway, kids don't always agree with what their parents attitude and taste, even that early on. How many times have you seen a child and parent having a disagreement over what they want to wear? Children, even young ones, develop their own taste (also shaped by what their friends are wearing or what they are exposed to) and it isn't always in-line with what the parents would choose for their child.
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  2. #162

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    I think we don't know enough about the family to say they are truely letting the kids choose or they are unduly influencing a child to go against norms to make a point. Either scenario could easily be true. I wouldn't take any concerns about the parent as a sign of wanting to keep gender norms as they are.

    If you truely want a discussion about gender norms and who can and can't accept them, I think you need to leave this family out of the discussion. There are more than 1 or 2 possible red flags that I think people wouldn't ignore if the family had an anti-gay stance.
    "Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm -- but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves." – T.S. Eliot

  3. #163

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    Quote Originally Posted by mpal2 View Post
    There are more than 1 or 2 possible red flags that I think people wouldn't ignore if the family had an anti-gay stance.
    By all means, point them out.

    Context and intention changes everything, so if this family had an anti-gay stance, then of course some people would object to it.
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  4. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelskates View Post
    But only within their parents' limitations as well Japanfan. The parents still chose for the first 18 months, which I believe can influence future decisions made by the children (if the child is dressed in pink for 18 months and then asked what he wants to choose in the clothes sections, I think it's highly likely he'll go with what he knows and is familiar with), and they still choose the stores from which the kids can choose clothes.
    It's indisputable that parents have an influence on their kids. Allowing more choice versus less is an influence. These parents are aware of this in their view are striving to have a positive influence.

    And the choices made in the first 18 months will reflect their viewpoint. I'm reminded of someone else who wanted to limit gendering on her newborn. For this reason she chose to decorate her baby's room in earth tones before she knew the sex.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by numbers123 View Post
    I am not sure what you are trying to make a point of - you approve of their media blitz, you approve of their parenting choices, you approve that one should experiment with how society reacts to a child when no gender is identified?
    I'm not PeterG, but my take on his post was that he does not believe the initial interview granted by the parents was intended to draw the media blitz they are receiving. That's different than saying he "approves of their media blitz". It's also disingenuous to infer "you approve that one should experiment with how society reacts to a child when no gender is identified?" from anything Peter (or anyone else not vilifying this family) has said.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpal2 View Post
    I think we don't know enough about the family to say they are truely letting the kids choose or they are unduly influencing a child to go against norms to make a point. Either scenario could easily be true. I wouldn't take any concerns about the parent as a sign of wanting to keep gender norms as they are.

    If you truely want a discussion about gender norms and who can and can't accept them, I think you need to leave this family out of the discussion. There are more than 1 or 2 possible red flags that I think people wouldn't ignore if the family had an anti-gay stance.
    I agree there are some flags about this family - but what has people freaking out is the genderless environment, and to me that's not a red flag. I'd certainly welcome a discussion about gender norms (there's certainly a lot of energy around the topic), but seeing as this thread is about this family, they're probably going to continue to be the center of this dicussion.
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  6. #166
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    I think use of "experiment" in this context is interesting because that's the same language and framework conservatives use to describe same-sex marriage.
    Why the Same-Sex Marriage Experiment Will Not Work
    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/...xperiment-work
    . Like many other failed social experiments before it, the same-sex marriage agenda is driven by a blinding rush of idealism filled with the best of intentions.
    http://www.ausprayernet.org.au/featu...rticles_02.php
    Redefining marriage is a radical social experiment. Previous generations of social experimenters have caused unimaginable misery for millions of people.
    http://concernedforlife.blogspot.com...xperiment.html
    Last edited by agalisgv; 06-14-2011 at 12:01 AM.

  7. #167

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    And the choices made in the first 18 months will reflect their viewpoint. I'm reminded of someone else who wanted to limit gendering on her newborn. For this reason she chose to decorate her baby's room in earth tones before she knew the sex.
    Poor baby, having to look at dreary earth tones. Perhaps she included reds and oranges in the "earth tones" nursery? After black and white, infants first begin to distinguish and respond to bright, primary colors -- soft pastels and muted tones, not so much.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    Asli, I'm trying to understand your point, but not quite getting it. It's my understanding Jazz didn't like his school because he was being teased for dressing the way he wanted. Are you saying he shouldn't be able to dress that way, or his parents should be talking him into a new wardrobe? Or are you saying the parents are forcing Jazz to wear feminine clothes?
    I am saying that according to the article, the parents have approached the choice of clothes as a question of the random choice of colour and model among all clothes in a shop. They haven't explained to Jazz from the beginning that many of the clothes we wear aren't neutral, they carry a meaning, just like all other signs in our culture which it is the parent's responsibility to help the children decipher.

    If his parents had explained to Jazz that some of the clothes are manufactured for girls and are considered girls' clothes by virtually everyone, then he could choose his clothes in a way that expressed who he was, using the signs of his particular culture. As it is, he was as unaware of what he was saying with his clothes, as if he were using words of which he didn't know the meaning.

    Speaking broadly, the theme I'm getting from some in this thread is it's ok to question gender roles as long as one does it discreetly and doesn't make an issue out of it. I can't help but think how similar that is to responses I hear from conservatives re: sexual orientation--"they (meaning lgbts) can do what they want, just don't put it in my face." "I don't have a problem with gays, but I wish they'd just keep it to themselves instead of publicizing it." Etc.
    I think two things are being confused by the parents.
    1. Who we are
    2. How we express it

    If Jazz were transgendered or gay and wanted to wear clothes made for girls for that reason, now that would be a cause worth fighting for.

    However apparently he is a boy who dresses and does his hair "like a girl" while asking his mother to give him a written note explaining that he is a boy - because he absolutely wants it to be known. His whole life is affected by this non-issue.

    His parents seem to think that the choice of clothes in itself is a kind of freedom. It is only a freedom if he knows what they mean.

    There are so many gender clichés that should be NOT be fed to children. For instance, a child should not be told that any activities are rather for boys or for girls or that any profession is rather for women or for men. They should feel that in a relationship women and men are equal in everything from making the decisions to the domestic tasks if they live together. They shouldn't be told how they are supposed to feel and behave (less afraid, politer etc.) according to whether they are a boy or a girl.

    Unfortunately this clothes issue seems to be affecting Jazz in a way that prevents him from getting to these vital issues.

  9. #169

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asli View Post
    If Jazz were transgendered or gay and wanted to wear clothes made for girls for that reason, now that would be a cause worth fighting for.
    You're saying that it's okay for TG or gay men to wear 'girl's' clothes or colours, not straight men?
    [/QUOTE]

    There are so many gender clichés that should be NOT be fed to children. For instance, a child should not be told that any activities are rather for boys or for girls or that any profession is rather for women or for men. They should feel that in a relationship women and men are equal in everything from making the decisions to the domestic tasks if they live together.
    So they should have choices with regard to activities and profession, but not colour and hairstyle?


    They shouldn't be told how they are supposed to feel and behave (less afraid, politer etc.) according to whether they are a boy or a girl.
    In telling kids to adopt gender norms in appearance, parents do tell kids how they should feel and behave.

  10. #170
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    I have no objection to raising a child in a genderless environment, the problem I have is with the media attention that this family and child have received. Now, however the situation plays out, the child and family are destined to be in the media spotlight.

  11. #171
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    Our local Superstore (Loblaw's grocery chain) has its toy aisle labelled Boy Toys and Girl Toys. One of these days I'm going to bring some spray paint to the store and become a vandalising activist.
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  12. #172

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    Quote Originally Posted by numbers123 View Post
    I have no objection to raising a child in a genderless environment, the problem I have is with the media attention that this family and child have received. Now, however the situation plays out, the child and family are destined to be in the media spotlight.
    Unless it's short-lived and the family declines anymore interviews.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjblue View Post
    Our local Superstore (Loblaw's grocery chain) has its toy aisle labelled Boy Toys and Girl Toys. One of these days I'm going to bring some spray paint to the store and become a vandalising activist.
    I bought my just-turned-6-year-old daughter legos for her birthday. I am trying to raise an engineer (), and she loves pink and dolls, etc., so I looked for some girl-themed legos. No luck (other than one set that she already has), so I got a generic green-boxed set with houses, people, etc. I also got her the doll she really wanted. She hasn't touched the legos, but won't put the doll down. Of course, my son immediately asked her "Sister, do you want me to build these for you." She was like "Sure. Whatever."
    Creating drama!

  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjblue View Post
    Our local Superstore (Loblaw's grocery chain) has its toy aisle labelled Boy Toys and Girl Toys.
    When you order a Happy Meal at McDonald's, the cashier asks if it's for a boy or girl, and the toy is based on your answer.

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjblue View Post
    Our local Superstore (Loblaw's grocery chain) has its toy aisle labelled Boy Toys and Girl Toys. One of these days I'm going to bring some spray paint to the store and become a vandalising activist.
    The worst is that interesting toys such as Lego boxes are mainly in the boys section while the girls are left with the pinkety pink gadgets. (I have two daughters.)

    OTOH the toys designed for girls are slightly "prettier" while the ones designed for boys contain the ugliest monsters, the fugliest colours and most agressive designs imaginable. So many girls don't want these toys and understand them. Even being able to look at these horrible toys must be a rite of initiation for the poor boys!

    All in all, neither side is satisfactory. The best toys are upto 5 years old when there is less separation among boys and girls IMO. Also Playmobil has good toys that are not intended either for boys or for girls.

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    You're saying that it's okay for TG or gay men to wear 'girl's' clothes or colours, not straight men?
    First, we are talking about a little child and not a man. A man can wear whatever he wants, because he knows who he is, is able to understand cultural signs and to measure the consequences of his actions.

    Secondly, wearing a pink dress and braids screams either "I am a girl" or "I feel like a girl" in our cultures. It's no use pretending that this isn't so. So if a transgendered or gay boy wants to wear girls' clothes because otherwise he feels he is contradicting his identity, in that case it is worth facing the consequences, because the child's feeling of self is in question. is parents can explain this situation and there's nothing any other adults can decently say against it. As for a little boy who does not feel like a girl but who has been told that he can choose any clothes items from the shop, he is facing enormous consequences for nothing. Excluded from school, uncomfortable with other adults, feeling like a freak and probably unable to mingle with other children. What does this do to his confidence and his social skills?

    If there is a fight to be fought against gender-specific dress code, it is the grown-up men and women who should fight it. Actually women have fought it and won in the Western society. We don't have to wear corsets or hats or voluminous skirts and we have a vast choice of styles and colours. Thanks to that, little girls can now wear jeans and t-shirts when they go to the playground and not be impeded by fancy dresses.

    The men are really behind, they are so limited in their choice!
    Actually, if men knew how comfortable a dress can be compared to a suit, not only would they wear dresses themselves but they would try to prevent women from wearing them.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asli View Post
    I think two things are being confused by the parents.
    1. Who we are
    2. How we express it

    If Jazz were transgendered or gay and wanted to wear clothes made for girls for that reason, now that would be a cause worth fighting for.
    wow

    Quote Originally Posted by Asli View Post
    Secondly, wearing a pink dress and braids screams either "I am a girl" or "I feel like a girl" in our cultures.
    Only until people stop buying into it and let their kids wear what the hell they want and support their choices.-+

    It's no use pretending that this isn't so. So if a transgendered or gay boy wants to wear girls' clothes because otherwise he feels he is contradicting his identity, in that case it is worth facing the consequences, because the child's feeling of self is in question. is parents can explain this situation and there's nothing any other adults can decently say against it.
    this is wrong on so many levels I can only I will say that I appreciate that this hypothetical trans kid has supportive parents who are willing to go up against the majority who will think their kid is a freak and that they are ruining his life by letting him behave so far outside society's norms...oh wait.. that sounds an awful lot like what's going on here.
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  18. #178

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asli View Post
    Actually women have fought it and won in the Western society. We don't have to wear corsets or hats or voluminous skirts and we have a vast choice of styles and colours. Thanks to that, little girls can now wear jeans and t-shirts when they go to the playground and not be impeded by fancy dresses.
    Except that a lot of what women wear or at least what we're encouraged to wear is still highly objectifying compared to what men wear. We may have won a few battles, but we aren't close to winning a war here.
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  19. #179
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    I do feel that the pinkety pink princess stuff along with the idea that "Some day my prince will come" is detrimental and ridiculous. Thankfully, for a lot of girls it's just a stage around 3 to 5. They are into wearing black by the time they are 12, having gained a lot of cynicism along the way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Except that a lot of what women wear or at least what we're encouraged to wear is still highly objectifying compared to what men wear. We may have won a few battles, but we aren't close to winning a war here.
    Statements like this where liberal gender equity notions come so close to fundamentalist notions that women must be covered up to avoid being objectified scare me.

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