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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by screech View Post
    Proof that pink does not hinder a man's manliness:

    This somehow turned into this. (and this, and this.)

    And the leader of the Giro d'Itlalia wears the coveted "pink" jersey, even for time trials when they're in more aerodynamic kits.
    "The Devil is joining in, and that's never a good sign." Phil Liggett

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by genevieve View Post
    I went to college with someone whose gender I still don't know. I *think* Terry was a he - but I'm not certain. But I realized quickly that it didn't matter, and if I was uncomfortable not knowing, it was a reflection on ME, not on Terry. Terry was popular on campus, successful in school, was brilliant at languages (learning and teaching) and is a successful adult. I guess s/he didn't get the memo that not having a well defined gender identity meant that s/he was doomed to a life of social shunning, inability to get a job or achieve success.
    There were two kids at my elementary school whose gender I couldn't tell. I don't remember their names if I ever knew them (we didn't have classes together). No one seemed to pay much attention to it.

    You are what you are. I just don't understand trying to raise a genderless person on purpose. Those parents want their child to be able to choose later? We choose our genders? Maybe intersex people can (although I heard some say they don't feel the need to), but I sure don't remember choosing mine.

    I've never been a girly girl and I don't adhere to many aspects of what a regular woman is "supposed" to be, yet I have no doubt in my mind I am female and always have been. I don't think I would have appreciated it if my parents had decided to treat me as a genderless person for the first years of my life, let alone made such a manufactured mystery to the outside world of it. They didn't push gender roles on me or my sister, but that's different. And thank god they never had me wear pink.

    People are born male, female, intersex, female in male body and vice versa. Some people don't feel like they belong to either sex or they belong to both at once. That's all cool and we all should be treated accordingly to what we feel we are. I just don't think we choose it.

    The only way I could understand those parents' behavior is if they had an intersex child. In no case (that I can think of right now at least) can I understand making the whole affair public. It's not about their child. It's about them. "Look at us, we are so cool and progressive. We so don't care about our child's gender, we're going to expose our child to public scrutiny and put it under a microscope, so whatever our child wants to be it can, no pressure. No pressure at all."

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    It does not sound to me like they have a rigid plan on how long this decision (of keeping the children's gender a secret) will last.
    Why not work against gender stereotyping rather than spending all this energy to play this game?

    Seems to me that this poor kid with the porny first name is going to get pseudo-accidentally touched in the crotch under the guise of play by nosy adults trying to get the 411, if that hasn't already happened a few dozen times. Playful leg squeezes that go just a little too high, and so on.

  4. #84

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    Yes, and let's blame the parents for the inappropriate touching, shall we? I mean, they asked for it right?
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  5. #85

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    They are wrong about who knows the child's gender. The passport office knows, as will anyone who has looked at the passport or birth certificate.

    What if Jazz wants to tell people? What if he wants to talk about Storm? It's unnatural to always use a name and not he/she.

  6. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by WindSpirit View Post
    ... In no case (that I can think of right now at least) can I understand making the whole affair public. It's not about their child. It's about them. "Look at us, we are so cool and progressive. We so don't care about our child's gender, we're going to expose our child to public scrutiny and put it under a microscope, so whatever our child wants to be it can, no pressure. No pressure at all."
    This.
    A good rant is cathartic. Ranting is what keeps me sane. They always come from a different place. Take the prime minister, for example. Sometimes when I rant about him, I am angry; other times, I am just severely annoyed - it's an important distinction. - Rick Mercer

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Yes, and let's blame the parents for the inappropriate touching, shall we?
    Never said they were or weren't to blame.

  8. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by heckles View Post
    Never said they were or weren't to blame.
    I apologize for assuming that your disdain for the parents decision to not announce the sex of their baby to others and describing it as them playing a game also meant that they were responsible for the way other people are going to react.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    For those who didn't read the entire article, they also co-sleep: discuss.
    Creepy.

  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by WindSpirit View Post
    There were two kids at my elementary school whose gender I couldn't tell. I don't remember their names if I ever knew them (we didn't have classes together). No one seemed to pay much attention to it.

    You are what you are. I just don't understand trying to raise a genderless person on purpose. Those parents want their child to be able to choose later? We choose our genders? Maybe intersex people can (although I heard some say they don't feel the need to), but I sure don't remember choosing mine.

    I've never been a girly girl and I don't adhere to many aspects of what a regular woman is "supposed" to be, yet I have no doubt in my mind I am female and always have been. I don't think I would have appreciated it if my parents had decided to treat me as a genderless person for the first years of my life, let alone made such a manufactured mystery to the outside world of it. They didn't push gender roles on me or my sister, but that's different. And thank god they never had me wear pink.
    I remember when I took Gender Studies in college being taught that sex (male/female) is predetermined but gender (man/woman, boy/girl) is not because gender is socially constructed. That evidenced by the different ideas of masculine and feminine that exists across cultures. What is considered feminine in some cultures may not be in others. We "perform" gender based on our biological sex, most of the time. When I wear hijab, that is a way of performing the role of being a Muslim woman. Of course, there are people who do the opposite (transgendered) and people who are androgynous.

    I imagine that the children's parents are aware of these theories and hence, let their children "pick" which ever gender they want. Personally, I feel like the parents are using their children as political statements. I understand fighting gender norms and stereotypes but I somehow feel this is going beyond that.
    "If people are looking for guarantees, they should buy appliances at Sears and stay away from human relationships."~Prancer

  11. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by modern_muslimah View Post
    I imagine that the children's parents are aware of these theories and hence, let their children "pick" which ever gender they want. Personally, I feel like the parents are using their children as political statements. I understand fighting gender norms and stereotypes but I somehow feel this is going beyond that.
    This ^! There are many other ways of doing this beyond letting people guess about the child's biological sex. I know many parents who are very proactive about exposing their pre-K children to activities that are culturally viewed as more appropriate for a boy or a girl and letting them explore the possibilities. We may even have a budding chef or designer in our family due to my middle nephew's fondness for his mother's EZBake oven and her pretend sewing machine.
    AceOn6, the golf loving skating fan

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garden Kitty View Post
    And the leader of the Giro d'Itlalia wears the coveted "pink" jersey, even for time trials when they're in more aerodynamic kits.
    I miss the T-Mobile team. Magenta is a good color to wear to stand out of the pack.

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/phot...e-change/34976

  13. #93
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    Parents of ‘genderless’ Toronto baby surface to talk about unwanted media attention


    This article includes a link to their (one?) interview. It's with CBC radio.

    Select quotes from the yahoo article:

    "The fact that the story has gone viral, and is now across the world, is also a tremendous shock to my system," said Storm's mother. "This wouldn't be my chosen venue for having these discussions."
    Yet, despite the regrets, Witterick admitted on the CBC that she would consent to the initial coverage all over again.

    "I do think my children have seen their parents stand up," she said, "and speak up when it's important."
    It's official. I am madly in love with Meryl Davis.

  14. #94

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    From the Yahoo article:
    "Because the more that we try and prioritize our family, and step back from the media," Witterick explained to "Q" host Jian Ghomeshi, "the more the media seems to be creating a story that doesn't really exist."
    Oh FFS. If the story "didn't really exist" then why do they think the Toronto Star was interested in them in the first place? And if they're so upset now about "media attention", why did they agree to the initial story? If they honestly believed that the story would have just run in the Toronto Star and no one would have noticed or followed up, they are hopelessly naive or deeply stupid.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  15. #95
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    Cry me a river.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  16. #96
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    That's what they get for letting their kid play in a homemade half-assed hot air balloon.

    Oh, wait. Wrong media whore family.
    The fastest thing out of New Jersey since Tricky Nicky in a Muscovian handbasket

  17. #97
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    Sounds like a psychology experiment, using real kids. Meh, kids are resilient and this isn't the worst thing that could happen. The dinner table conversation could be really interesting: "What did you do today, Storm?" "I tricked Mrs. Magillicutty in thinking that I was a girl. Tomorrow, I'll ask if I can bring in a football and really throw her for a loop." If s/he were in my family, some cousin or another would mock the parents for their experiment, lol.

    The more difficult part for strangers is not being able to use gender-based pronouns: him/her, his/hers, he/she. They'll have to say "Where is STORM'S pacifier?" "Does your CHILD want to share the sandbox with Mary?" "STORM'S grade on the math test wasn't good - did HE OR SHE study?" "They need to tie their shoelace." It's just awkward and uncomfortable. I have had skaters in group lessons with androgynous names and appearance. It's a little distracting if you have to talk to the parents since you can't use he/she/him/her/etc. It's easier to do in writing than in speech.

    When Storm chooses a pink shirt for him/herself one day, someone will call him/her a little girl and I'd like to see the parents' response. I hope they won't be angry at someone for jumping to a conclusion. However, I think they might give a mini-lecture. If Storm is old enough, he/she might spill the beans and shut down the experiment.


    To me, the name "Storm" is masculine because Dr. Frank Field, a well-known local meteorologist, named his son "Storm Field." Dad and son were both weather reporters in NYC when I was growing up. If I met the kid from the article, I'd assume it was a boy!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Field_(meteorologist)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storm_Field

    Full disclosure: I wouldn't let my daughters join football, wrestling or hockey, mainly because they fight enough out of the arena, not because of gender issues.
    Last edited by FigureSpins; 06-09-2011 at 08:54 PM.

  18. #98
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    The kid kinda looks like a boy too.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by FigureSpins View Post
    To me, the name "Storm" is masculine because Dr. Frank Field, a well-known local meteorologist, named his son "Storm Field." Dad and son were both weather reporters in NYC when I was growing up. If I met the kid from the article, I'd assume it was a boy!
    And then there's Storm Large, who is definitely a girl.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Oh FFS. If the story "didn't really exist" then why do they think the Toronto Star was interested in them in the first place?
    All kinds of stories appear in newspapers and don't end up becoming a worldwide story. The fact that this situation has been blown so out of proportion shows the validity of their point. That the issue of gender-identity is so ingrained in people that they can't let it go. We have work to do as a society.

    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    And if they're so upset now about "media attention", why did they agree to the initial story?
    Because they thought the change it could bring about would create a better world for their children, as well as hundreds of thousands other children?
    It's official. I am madly in love with Meryl Davis.

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