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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    However, I don't believe this was planned or that it was something that Tamara longed for. She coached whoever came to her- even Ina & Zimmerman, and she made them look pretty good, although they did not have the talent of B&S.
    Or Kavaguti and Smirnov for that matter. However, Moskvina's choreography on them makes Alexander and Yuko looks like Popeye trying to swat a spider.
    Last edited by essence_of_soy; 12-31-2012 at 08:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    . . . They were both skating with different partners earlier, and we know how it turned out with Elena-Oleg (disastrous). Anton-Maria was a lovely pair, but they were coached by another coach. Nobody could have predicted early on that both pairs would break up and Elena-Anton would create such a beautiful pair . . .
    Are you trying to say there was no conveyor belt at the Moskovina Factory of Pairs Figure Skating? So much for all the language used in those old fluff pieces.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 12-31-2012 at 03:28 PM.

  3. #83
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    I'm so glad Elena & Anton paired up, at their very best they were magical. I'm also glad that the Petikhs were paired and had their own success in the sport. I do wonder though, how the pair of Petrova-Sikharulidze would have fared had they stayed together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lulu View Post
    I'm so glad Elena & Anton paired up, at their very best they were magical. I'm also glad that the Petikhs were paired and had their own success in the sport. I do wonder though, how the pair of Petrova-Sikharulidze would have fared had they stayed together.
    Placements - wise, Petrova and Sikharudlize seemed to be neck and neck with Berezhnaya & Shliakhkov for a while.

    However, as the third Russian pair in 1995 behind Shishkova/Naumov and Eltsova/Buskov, Maria and Anton may not have even made the World team from 1996 onwards with Kazakova and Dmitriev's immediate success on the international scene.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    I don't know if she longed for such a pair or not, but Elena & Anton kind of fell into her lap. They were both skating with different partners earlier, and we know how it turned out with Elena-Oleg (disastrous). Anton-Maria was a lovely pair, but they were coached by another coach. Nobody could have predicted early on that both pairs would break up and Elena-Anton would create such a beautiful pair. With Moskvina's choreography, their strong basic skating skills and Elena's flexibility they developed very quickly into a great pair. However, I don't believe this was planned or that it was something that Tamara longed for. She coached whoever came to her- even Ina & Zimmerman, and she made them look pretty good, although they did not have the talent of B&S.
    i do remember reading an article before where moskvina was quoted as saying she has wanted a pair similar to g/g. of course, i cant remember where to find it now, but it was more of an article praising the merits of g/g to a point where other coaches even wanted to shape their students in that fashion.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by casken View Post
    Same with Eltsova/Bushkov, Shiskova/Naumov, Petrova/Tikhonov in the 90s/2000s. All excellent pair teams with textbook elements undermined with poor music and program choices.
    I disagree about Petrova/Tikhonov, at least from 2002 on, when I saw them compete live regularly. Their lines and way of skating did not match very well, and he had the worst stamina: by the last 2/3 of their programs, he was usually winded, and while she had wonderful lift positions, their lifts, especially the last ones, would end at almost a complete standstill. Watching them in warmup and comparing their side-by-side skating to Totmianina/Marinin was a huge let down. I found P/T hugely disappointing when I saw them live.

    T/M learned to move in a similar way, as V/V did before them.

    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Wasnt Vasiliev also married to Tatiana Totmianina for a period of time before divorcing?
    They never married, as far as I know. At least for part of their relationship, he was married to the wife after Valova. AFAIK the relationship lasted while they were working together, but after Totmianina left for Russia to do a lot of post-Olympic shows, and he took on other pairs, it took its natural course. I think she was briefly linked to Plushenko after the Olympics, but I don't know the exact timing.

    Quote Originally Posted by equatorial View Post
    Moskvina called V/V "mediocre skaters" (talentwise) and complained that unlike Zhuk she couldn't pick and choose and had to work with whoever she had Interestingly, it was with them that she made a breakthrough as a top pairs coach. T/M were clearly superior to V/V in terms of talent, they were finer skaters, too.
    Vasiliev was quoted in the book "The Second Mark":

    Now, as Vasiliev watches what may be Moskvina's last great pair, he sees the end of the Soviet tradition. "In Soviet Union, the system made the skater," Vasiliev says. "I was normal person. But they put me in the system, they taught me the right way, and they made me Olympic champion. And this will never be again. Because I tell you, in Soviet system, old days, it took at least one year, repeat one year, to learn how to do crossovers."
    The reason Vasiliev could take two teenage singles skaters and turn them into World and Olympic champions, skaters he said didn't know rockers from brackets because they had come up after compulsories were eliminated, was that he learned how the system taught him and made a pair, and he made T/M into a pair. (I think that's why he had so much trouble with Trankov, who was a lot more gifted, but was not interested in being manufactured.)

    Quote Originally Posted by essence_of_soy View Post
    By applying that style to G & G, I am thinking the end result would be a pairing like Elena Berezhnaya and Anton Sikharulidze.
    That is such a great deduction!

    While I respected Rodnina, I never liked either pair she was in. I found her mechanical, and both hims almost non-existent. Pestova/Leonovich were my favorites after the Protopopovs. Gordeeva/Grinkov were terrific skaters, but I was crushed when P/L no longer competed.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I mostly agree except there was one thing special about Rodnina & Zaitsev, the incredible speed and attack they skated with. Without that they would have been basically the 70s version of Brasseur & Eisler with a bunch of complicated lifts and the triple twist and not much else, but with that it make them a devastating force.

    The amazing thing about Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze though is they were the first time I think that was as fast or faster than R&Z but they did it quietly and with beautiful soft edges, unlike R&Z who were pushing and pushing. R&Z's agressiveness and attack of everything, every element, every step, and every crossover though was spectacular in its own way.
    Word to everything you said. B&S's speed and flow over the ice was incredible, even by the very high standards of the top pair teams in history. G&G and B&S had gorgeous skating skills. They were probably the two greatest pair teams in history in terms of their basic skating and mastery over the sweet spot of the blade.


    In addition to R&Z's speed and attack, they also had great unison and their consistency was very impressive. Has there ever been a pair team as consistent as R&Z? I don't just mean in terms of medals, but in terms of clean performances. Granted, I haven't seen every single performance of theirs, but I very rarely remember R&Z making even a minor error. When they did make an error, it was usually a slight flub, that probably would have gone almost unnoticed.

    I admire R&Z for their singular power on the ice, and for their (especially her) contribution to pairs skating. Their programs, on their own, never stood out to me as being particularly special or impressive. The exceptions are their final Kalinka exhibition, this 1977 LP (some unique moves in this one) and that one year at (Euros?) where the music stopped, but they continued to skate-in perfect unison.
    Last edited by lulu; 01-01-2013 at 04:34 AM.

  8. #88

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    This thread makes me miss B/S. I've been rewatching their competitive programs and still say wow. Even 10+ years later, they do not disappoint. Just watching them do crossovers before elements is

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    Quote Originally Posted by shan View Post
    This thread makes me miss B/S. I've been rewatching their competitive programs and still say wow. Even 10+ years later, they do not disappoint. Just watching them do crossovers before elements is
    They were beautiful weren't they? Even in their exhibitions, their speed, power and flow over the ice is apparent: http://youtu.be/5AB1icW8rOg.

  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by lulu View Post
    They were beautiful weren't they? Even in their exhibitions, their speed, power and flow over the ice is apparent: http://youtu.be/5AB1icW8rOg.
    That routine makes me smile. The sbs choreography makes me but I love it!

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by shan View Post
    That routine makes me smile. The sbs choreography makes me but I love it!
    LOL true.

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    Thanks for the link. Seeing this reminds me, did B/S have trouble with the triple twist lift?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lulu View Post
    They were beautiful weren't they? Even in their exhibitions, their speed, power and flow over the ice is apparent: http://youtu.be/5AB1icW8rOg.
    I love Barcelona. I watched them skate this in green costumes when I went to see COI. Another time they skated to Impossible Dream, which was a very different type of music/program. They were so versatile.

    This is turning into a B&S uber thread.

    ETA: So I started one.
    Last edited by Vash01; 01-01-2013 at 11:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    I love Barcelona. I watched them skate this in green costumes when I went to see COI. Another time they skated to Impossible Dream, which was a very different type of music/program. They were so versatile.

    This is turning into a B&S uber thread.
    LOL, poor V&V, wuz robbed in their own thread!

    I love to gush about B&S too. I wish I could have seen B&S skate live. : I still think Anton S. had the best spiral of probably any male pair skater-such great extension.
    I always wondered how a hypothetical match up between G&G and B&S would have played out. Both teams had excellen basic skating skills. I think B&S had better transitions and choreography and did sbs triple jumps, compared to G&G's double jumps, but G&G were more consistent overall.

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    Goordeeva and Grinkov had the beauty and rare "magical" quality associated with the Protopopovs; combined with excellent skills.
    B and S, much as I admired them, were hampered somewhat by Elena's occasionally inconsistent jumps.

  16. #96
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    G&G were much more of a judges favorite than B&S ever were so probably G&G would have dominated the rivalry as far as competitive results, just like they did with M&D who sometimes skated as well or better (1990 Worlds, 1994 Olympics) but were never rewarded for it either. The judges would have never had G&G losing a string of competitions in a row to Sale & Pelletier for instance, not in a million years. Ignoring the often ridiculous judging, it would be interesting to see how the two pairs would compare on the ice skating in the same era however.

  17. #97
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    after watching the 86 and 87 worlds again i do agree with most of you that v/v were underrated, but pioneers often are. would micshkutonk & dmietreiv have had their sucsesses without a team like v/v introducing a more modern pairs style? g/g were sometimes like computer animation recreation of the rulebook they were so perfect, and as much as i love them, their artistic marks should have suffered in the beginning of their senior career for their somewhat shallow programs.

    a side question for maybe a hardcore fan lol. valova & vasiliev's LP from 1986 Worlds, what music is it? Toller Cranston says in the canadian broad cast its Shirelle (sp) performed by the Bolshoi... i cant find it anywhere probably because i dont know how to spell it. can anyone help?

  18. #98
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    It's spelled "Shurale" in English. There are clips of the Marrinsky performing bit on YouTube.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by amynicole912 View Post
    after watching the 86 and 87 worlds again i do agree with most of you that v/v were underrated, but pioneers often are. would micshkutonk & dmietreiv have had their sucsesses without a team like v/v introducing a more modern pairs style? g/g were sometimes like computer animation recreation of the rulebook they were so perfect, and as much as i love them, their artistic marks should have suffered in the beginning of their senior career for their somewhat shallow programs.

    a side question for maybe a hardcore fan lol. valova & vasiliev's LP from 1986 Worlds, what music is it? Toller Cranston says in the canadian broad cast its Shirelle (sp) performed by the Bolshoi... i cant find it anywhere probably because i dont know how to spell it. can anyone help?
    Good point about V&V setting the stage for M&D (and later B&S as well). While Moskvina had some degree of success before V&V (her students, Vorobieva & Lisovsky won the 1981 W.C., Vorobieva & her first partner Alexandr Vlassov won a few Euro/World medals as well), V&V were her first truly breakthrough pair team, and choreographically helped set the stage for M&D to take it to another level just a few years later.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by amynicole912 View Post
    after watching the 86 and 87 worlds again i do agree with most of you that v/v were underrated, but pioneers often are. would micshkutonk & dmietreiv have had their sucsesses without a team like v/v introducing a more modern pairs style? g/g were sometimes like computer animation recreation of the rulebook they were so perfect, and as much as i love them, their artistic marks should have suffered in the beginning of their senior career for their somewhat shallow programs.
    Good points. It makes me sad that Moskvina hit it out of the park with her music selections for M&D and B&S, but V&V always got such strange combinations. I liked the version of Fur Elise they used in 84 (have never heard any other skaters use it), but putting it with pop music didn't work, and The Final Countdown and Snowstorm in 1988 were each individually good portions of programs, but not together! When they skate a program like Shurale, then you really get to see how artistic they were. I think a lot of people remember them for having weird 80s music and costumes, compared to the sleek elegant look of G&G, but don't remember how interesting V&V's choreo was.
    a side question for maybe a hardcore fan lol. valova & vasiliev's LP from 1986 Worlds, what music is it? Toller Cranston says in the canadian broad cast its Shirelle (sp) performed by the Bolshoi... i cant find it anywhere probably because i dont know how to spell it. can anyone help?
    This is a great question. The music is Shurale by Yarrulin. This website lists all their music: http://web.archive.org/web/201002170...glPrograms.htm (it's no longer available, so you have to view it through the "wayback machine" website). I would like to see the "Demon" program from 1980!

    Here is a description of Shurale: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9E%C3%BCr%C3%A4le According to legends, Şüräle lives in forests. He has long fingers, a horn on its forehead, and a woolly body. He lures victims to a thicket and tickles them to death.

    Also of interest to this thread is the page which lists their achievements and talks about their style. One thing that I've always wondered about is V&V being called the first Soviet pair to turn "pro." That's not the first time I've heard that. Rodnina didn't afaik but the Protopopovs skated in many professional shows before V&V. Is the difference that the Protopopovs defected, while V&V were the first ones who actually had permission from the Soviet Union?

    Ohh, and I just noticed the video page still works!

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