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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    Well, I can assure you, being patronizing definitely helps!
    I thought it would

    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    ... nevermind. Even though it's quoted now for posterity.
    Well Pleb, I assure that many will not remember your 133rd post or 132nd and so on.

    Here are a few other things skaters under the CoP don't seem to do

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyu8GYBRIjE

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKGasODrAcU

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTDLjhTUMbA

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC3xshNNvRQ

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms9abaxEuMU

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13DNxsLgwQQ
    Last edited by bardtoob; 05-23-2011 at 04:13 PM.

  2. #62

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    Last edited by bardtoob; 05-23-2011 at 04:37 PM.

  3. #63
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    Your second to last clip doesn't work.

    Love the figures one, though. I'd love to see them bring that back.

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    Your second to last clip doesn't work.
    It works for me, but you can search "Tonya Harding 1985 National Sports Festival, Ladies SP" and find it right away.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    It works for me, but you can search "Tonya Harding 1985 National Sports Festival, Ladies SP" and find it right away.
    Excellent. Thanks

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    ^ You're so right. Michelle Kwan was awesome at all those things and then some. There still is none better. Some can pull their foot above their head but the skating is wobbly. Some are moving but loopless. Some have the triple axel but are salchow less. Some are fast but lutzless or flipless or preceding stepless. Some are good once in awhile. Some are so graceful you'd think they could never fall until they do A LOT. Some skate below their potential. Some skate to their potential but couldn't get noticed even if they dress like a canary ... there is none like Michelle Kwan.
    This made my day, thank you..


    And to the above poster,Aussie Willy, 2000=TRV, 2001=SOTBS

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatesindreams View Post
    aftershocks and bardtoob,

    Entire posts:
    Me, too.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Even Frank Carroll spoke of Kwan lacking "spark" in her Olympic 1998 lp. I certainly do not wish to patronize Frank, but I think MK had plenty of spark in that program:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x14RFdZXiVk

    Lots of Michelle spark, not to mention beautiful, mature choreography. Lest we forget ... that was an amazing performance, which IMO stands on its own, and does not need to be adversely compared with her out-of-body experiences at 1998 Nationals. Because MK broke into tears and was overcome with emotion at the end of her '98 Olympic lp, I think a lot of people thought she felt she hadn't performed well. Quite the contrary, IMO. Her tears seemed to me to be expressing pent-up emotion and relief.
    I completetly agree. Michelle's performance in terms of "spark" is at least equal to Yu Na's performance in Vancouver. How ironic that Michelle lost the gold in a performance with intricate choreography of the highest order and yet was criticized later in her career for not having enough choreography! It seems like she just couldn't win with her critics, no matter what she did. And for the record, I think Frank was totally out of line with his comments. I sometimes wonder if that uncalled-for and unnecessary remark didn't ultimately poison his relationship with Michelle.
    Last edited by giselle23; 05-23-2011 at 08:42 PM.

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Struggle away, Proustable.

    And John Curry didn't receive any 6.0s for his Don Quixote lp at 1976 Olympics, but he should have, in Dick Button's opinion. ITA!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djadlQLK_ow

    So, should have Toller Cranston at 1974 Worlds:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7AZboQ0R08
    Just had to add this one to your excellent list....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR15rloAB0s

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by pollyanna View Post
    Just had to add this one to your excellent list....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR15rloAB0s
    OMG ! One of my favorite program, ever. What a beautiful skater.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by pollyanna View Post
    Just had to add this one to your excellent list....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR15rloAB0s
    Yes, thanks! bardtoob had also posted a U.S. Nationals performance by Janet Lynn that I hadn't seen. She was absolutely extraodinary ... Just to watch her performances ... Janet Lynn epitomizes figure skating. Thanks for all your wonderful (some rare) video links, bardtoob!!! Midori Ito is a revelation -- she really should have won Olympics in 1988, IMHO -- i know, except for the dreaded figures she was not good at. But wow, she absolutely flew threw that performance, and she has gorgeous leg position in her layback spin, which is rare.

    Also, thanks to kwanette and skatesindreams.

    Some additional 6.0 performances:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKmUW8wPB0s Michelle Kwan

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCRaoNfU0r8 Chen Lu

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3P7wxwMMUU Tonya Harding

    Programs worthy of 6.0:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aAIs6iqNXI Johnny Weir (under CoP)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whV9xrqwwSU Johnny Weir


    I appreciate your vote of confidence for me as a judge, Aussie Willy. Although, as the current system stands, I don't think I would make a very good judge. I do indeed have a passion for figure skating though.

    Thanks for your comments, giselle. I agree generally, except I feel that Frank and MK forged an even deeper bond post-1998 Olympics that began to break down circa 2000 -2001 when TPTB seemed to want the Russian ladies to beat MK, and Frank was not that supportive of Kwan's desire to go to college during that period. Frank's comment re "spark" also may have been his way of coming to terms with MK not winning Olympic gold, as it may have recalled his disappointment with Linda Fratianne not winning in 1980 when she should have. Frank probably wanted to refrain from saying anything negative about the judging, but ended up maybe thinking about Kwan's Nats performance vs the Olympic one, which IMO, doesn't have any bearing.

    Thanks to BigB0882 for your original DoD post which led to a great thread, and to this one as an offshoot.

  12. #72
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    I agree generally, except I feel that Frank and MK forged an even deeper bond post-1998 Olympics that began to break down circa 2000 -2001 when TPTB seemed to want the Russian ladies to beat MK, and Frank was not that supportive of Kwan's desire to go to college during that period. Frank's comment re "spark" also may have been his way of coming to terms with MK not winning Olympic gold, as it may have recalled his disappointment with Linda Fratianne not winning in 1980 when she should have. Frank probably wanted to refrain from saying anything negative about the judging, but ended up maybe thinking about Kwan's Nats performance vs the Olympic one, which IMO, doesn't have any bearing.
    On your first point, I remember an ESPN biography on MK around SLC, where Lori Nichol said that Michelle wasn't training anywhere near where she was pre-1998. Michelle also reached her peak popularity and success between 1998-2002 (some may disagree, but she had 3/4 world titles and 4/4 nat titles that quad, and was raking in the most endorsements at that point) and on top of all that, was in college and had a boyfriend. I don't doubt her commitment to skating, but clearly she had plenty of other distractions, so it was incredible she was able to still skate so well and keep her consistency when she wasn't, by Lori's own admission, training nearly what she use to. I think that by itself attests to Kwan's natural talents.

    As for Frank's attitude about Nagano, I think it was 1/2 him realizing that Tara did skate lights out and deserved to win, and 1/2 not wanting to be bitter like he had been 18 years earlier, and it turn make Kwan bitter like Linda had been for so many years.
    Last edited by IceJunkie; 05-27-2011 at 06:00 AM.

  13. #73
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    Sure, IceJunkie, I don't completely disagree, as some of your thougths echo a bit of what I said. However, what I recall Frank saying in a more recent interview is that he disagreed with MK's parents decision to shelter her during the '98 Olympic experience. Frank said in the interview that he felt Michelle needed to enjoy more of the Olympics (but was in a hotel with her parents, rather than in the Olympic village). Whereas, Tara soaked up everything (and the media was more hyping Tara too, as I recall).

    The other distinction is that Tara's programs, altho' skated extremely well, were immature and her choreo and music did not have as much depth and intricacy as Michelle's programs. Also, Michelle skated first in the lp, and Tara last -- they both skated well. Its just a lot of people remember MK breaking out in tears after her lp skate while Tara had this joyous look. Tara, IMHO, learned a great deal from watching MK's skates at Nats -- Tara even copped some of MK's arm and hand movements. Sandra Bezic, who did Tara's choreo had tried to convince Tara not to use Disney music, but Tara was adamant, so Bezic gave in but was not happy with the choice. I think it was ok b/c Tara was after all 15 -- but definitely, her music and choreo are not as memorable as Michelle's. What people remember most about Tara's lp skate are her 3loop/3loop and her effervescence and her scream in the kiss 'n cry, not her actual program. What people fail to remember about Michelle's lp skate, is that she skated as well or better than Tara, certainly MK's was the more mature skate from a more polished skater. MK's tears afterward were probably tears of relief, so indeed, she might have been better off being allowed to fully engage in the Olympic experience, and maybe have less pent-up emotions.

    Also, the decision that went Tara's way was extremely close and controversial, which people also forget. As far as Frank not wanting MK to be bitter, I beg to differ. MK is a very different person from most people in general, let alone different from Linda Fratianne. In fact, if you will recall, MK after winning silver turned to Tara at a post press conference and declared, "I like you Tara." Very sincere and perhaps an effort to defuse the press trying to get her to say something negative about Tara winning. Therefore, Frank did not need to say or do anything to have MK not be "bitter." Being bitter is not in MK's nature. Frank, I believe, based on his recent interview, may have been more upset with MK's parents cloistering her, and that may be partly what was behind the "spark" remark, as again, Tara was shown everywhere, soaking up everything about the Olympic experience. Still, Michelle definitely had plenty of spark when she skated, so Frank was wrong about that. MK's lp music was soft and subtle, but take the performance at face value, and don't try to compare it with her out-of-body skates at Nationals (again, which Tara truly learned from --even Tara's father referenced the fact that "skaters learn from each other," after Tara won Olympic gold).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNRxEp3f7vc Kwan

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hsxdjv-NGTc Lipinski

    IMHO, Tara's 3loop/ 3loop, and other jumps (particularly 2axel which has no height) have nothing on MK's iconic spiral, MK's camel spin in both directions, and MK's overall lyricism and body line, plus MK's jumps not too shabby either.

  14. #74

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    Lyra Angelica was an unique program, but I don't think it was intricate. She had 8 jumping passes. It was full of crossovers. I loved the part at the beginning of the slow section that we saw at Skate America, but they took that out.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

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    Well, I do think MK's program was more intricate in how it was put together, and the music had more depth and subtlety, although it also had a light, soft feeling which was a risk for the Olympics.

    Yes, and crossovers are just so horrible, eh? Did not Tara have crossovers in her program too? Neither program (thank god) was constructed in the era of frenetic, points-grabbing CoP programs. Yes God, Toller Cranston too skated crossovers! I could watch Toller skating crossovers all day.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7AZboQ0R08

    And yes, even Janet Lynn skates some crossovers, or you might call them etchings on the ice of a majestic work of art.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e59ai1_lY4s

  16. #76

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    Some skaters crossovers are beautiful to watch, but that wasn't the point of my post. (You've picked two good ones, and let me add Gordeeva to the list!)

    Intricate usually means doing really difficult things with your feet. Patrick Chan's programs are intricate.

    Lyra was the more artistically mature program, but I wouldn't use the word intricate to describe it.

    You are hardly the first person to use that word about Lyra. I just don't see it.

    To use COP lingo, there weren't a ton of transitions in Lyra, so I've never understood the use of the word "intricate" about that program.

    She had a really nice smaller spiral (RBO?) into one of her spins, but that's probably the most significant transition in the program.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  17. #77
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    Okay Coco, to each his own.

    As far as your description of "intricate" as applied to skating programs, I wouldn't say that it means "doing really difficult things with your feet." Ah, Patrick Chan has superb edges, but that doesn't mean "intricate" -- he has just learned from great teachers how to properly position his skate blades, which allows him to have great ice coverage and speed. Having great edges is more related to good technique rather than having an intricate program. It is choreography that can be described as being "intricate." Perhaps MK's Lyra Angelica is not as intricate as some programs, but I feel it was more intricate than Tara's program, and MK's music had more depth as well.

    BTW, dictionary definition of intricate: "Having many interrelated parts or facets; having many complexly arranged elements." So, okay, MK's Lyra Angelica had a variety of elements that were arranged in a more intricate fashion than Tara's program, IMHO. But sure, Lyra Angelica was not as intricate as some programs. The Miraculous Mandarin, for instance, or Lament D'Ariane. Lyra was much more fluid, mature and artistic than Tara's lp. Also, MK's Rachmaninoff sp was also more fluid, artistic, mature and complexly arranged than Tara's sp. Again, neither Tara nor MK skated in 1998 under the CoP system.

    You seem to be more of a CoP-centric fan, Coco. As for me, I don't view everything in skating through the lens or lingo of CoP.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by OliviaPug View Post
    Kwan is beyond quantification. I for one am happy she wasn't subjected to COP for very long. It brings out the worst in so many skaters and in figure skating in general in so many ways. Sometimes I feel that a skater should just stand by the boards and wait to be asked to do their Level 4 Spiral, and then their best axel, and then their Level 30 (LOL) spin, and so on. So many programs have become demonstrations of moves without much connectivity. There are a few, but very few, exceptions to this rule. Figure (and I do mean FIGURE) skating is no longer the sport it used to be. The actual skating, which was originally based on figures, leaves much to be desired at times. When we see a skater who actual has good skating skills, they stand out -- in a good way (e.g., Patrick Chan). But tricks are where it's at because that's where the points are at.

    I remember Tarasova commenting about Kwan that she could "do anything." And by "do anything," Tarasova was not referring to Kwan's "trick" ability. Not many skaters or fans or judges these days (esp those coming up in COP) probably even grasp the full meaning of that statement.

    Michelle Kwan was and is a tremendous figure skater.

    O-
    Wonderful post! I miss the old days

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    ^ You're so right. Michelle Kwan was awesome at all those things and then some. There still is none better. Some can pull their foot above their head but the skating is wobbly. Some are moving but loopless. Some have the triple axel but are salchow less. Some are fast but lutzless or flipless or preceding stepless. Some are good once in awhile. Some are so graceful you'd think they could never fall until they do A LOT. Some skate below their potential. Some skate to their potential but couldn't get noticed even if they dress like a canary ... there is none like Michelle Kwan.
    Michelle is mesmerizing but is trueLutzless and hardjumpless.
    Last edited by t.mann; 06-01-2011 at 02:03 PM.

  20. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by t.mann View Post
    Michelle is mesmerizing but is trueLutzless and hardjumpless.
    . . . . . . . . . newby . . . probably never even saw Kwan at her best and wouldn't even know what to look for . . . too cute.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 06-01-2011 at 04:11 PM.

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