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  1. #81

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    Not that I don't agree but didn't we have a disagreement in another thread about who faced the most competition and you said it was Asada? Yet here you say Yu Na Kim has faced weaker competition than Kwan. That makes no sense because Asada and Yu Na have been competing side by side their entire careers. Maybe I am mistaken, will have to go find the thread.

    ETA: Found it. You chose Asada and Kim and said "I definitely wouldn't pick Kwan."

    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...28&postcount=4
    -Brian
    "Michelle would never be caught with sausage grease staining her Vera Wang." - rfisher

  2. #82

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    Didn't Michelle as young girl say she wanted to win three Olympic gold medals? Or am I imagining that? Michelle loved competing. I think she would have continued at least until 2002 if she had won.

  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheylana View Post
    I think something about winning the OGM seems to douse the competitive fires in most skaters. Even very competitive skaters like Tara. They just seem to lose motivation.
    Everyone except Plushy!

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigB08822 View Post
    Not that I don't agree but didn't we have a disagreement in another thread about who faced the most competition and you said it was Asada? Yet here you say Yu Na Kim has faced weaker competition than Kwan. That makes no sense because Asada and Yu Na have been competing side by side their entire careers.
    Asada began her senior career competing and dominating Slutskaya, Cohen, Arakawa in the 2006 Olympic season and probably would have won the Olympics and Worlds that year had she been age eligible (I dont give her credit for that as we will never know, but she proved herself vs those on the grand prix). Then in 2007 and 2008 was the one to beat overall facing Kim, Kostner, Ando, and Meissner all at their best. Kim had success in 2007 and 2008, but not as much as Asada, but then dominated for a couple years when Asada began to struggle, Kostner was past her prime, Slutskaya and Cohen were long gone. Her main rival the last two years has mostly been Miki Ando and even Ando is nowhere near the skater she was at her jumping peak in the mid 2000s when she was doing excellent triple-triples which she cant even rotate anymore.

    So I dont think Kim had the same competition as Asada at all, if we talk in the context of when they were successful.

    I think as far as overall competition goes Asada > Kwan > Kim. Of course in achievements Kwan > Kim > Asada. As far as overall talent Asada > Kwan > Kim (Asada is a huge undeachiever IMO due to bad coaching coaches choices, overemphasis on the triple axel, and other factors), and overall quality of skater considering the consistency element as well Kwan > Kim > Asada.

  5. #85
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    Yu Na Kim is great skater but not even in same league as much greater Michelle Kwan

    WTF??? Extremely overrated, both ... lots of ubers, both ... Kim seems at least more natural talented, and, of course, an Olympic Gold medal ...

  6. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by brightphoton View Post
    You're a cheerful one.

    There are chapters in life. For normal people, it's grade school, college, career, doing something meaningful that you enjoy, making an impact on the world, maybe some offspring, THEN sitting in a corner and dying. For Yuna, her competitive figure skating chapter is over. She can now pursue something else.
    Well I find it interesting that people are so willing to write her off (including yourself) based on one competition this year where she still had a remarkable achievement in winning a silver medal. Isn't that good enough?

    People are comparing her to last year because this year it wasn't the same. But at this current point of time she still is one of the best female skaters in the world, because the grounding and what is behind her still stands up, even though it may not be to our expectations (which I think is what people are judging her on).
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  7. #87
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    Winning a silver in the terrible womens field this year is not a remarkable achievement for someone like Kim, especialy losing to a skater she would beat in her sleep if she were even 60% trained. It is a disaesterous showing really. Her Vancouver performances would have won the title this year by over 30 points over the slop that the rest of the women put out (for sure a bigger margin than what she won by in Vancouver) so losing only reflects the HUGE decline she has in her skating in only a single year. She can have a future in competitive amateur skating but obviously not approaching it like she did this year. She has to get back to taking it seriously again, yet she has already indicated she is skipping the GP next season so....

    Keep in mind there is no way the womens field will stay as awful as it was this year, which was a historically poor year. What is 2nd this year will probably be 6th or worse by Sochi.

  8. #88

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    I actually didn't think the women's event at worlds was as bad as people make it out to be. The top skaters probably had one or two errors (like they usually do) but overall I think there were some really good performances.

    But to say that Kim's performance was "atrocious" and "disasterous" is over the top, lacks perspective and is not an accurate reflection of what truly went on on the ice. If she had totally splatted on every element then that would be disasterous. A couple of errors do not a disaster make. Because they were only small fraction of the performance overall.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  9. #89
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    Not to take anything away from Yu-na, but for me, Michelle really is the best female skater ever. (And this is coming from a Tara Lipinski, Sasha Cohen fan). Watching her skate last year to Winter Song just really sealed the deal for me.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    I actually didn't think the women's event at worlds was as bad as people make it out to be. The top skaters probably had one or two errors (like they usually do) but overall I think there were some really good performances.

    But to say that Kim's performance was "atrocious" and "disasterous" is over the top, lacks perspective and is not an accurate reflection of what truly went on on the ice. If she had totally splatted on every element then that would be disasterous. A couple of errors do not a disaster make. Because they were only small fraction of the performance overall.
    Is there a single set of performances from anyone at Worlds this year that would have even placed on the podium at the last Olympics or at the 2009 Worlds? Obvious answer is no so enough said about the quality of the event. Miki Ando skated much better to win the bronze at the 09 Worlds than the gold in Moscow, and the 2010 Olympics was of a higher standard than the 2009 Worlds. And the gold performances from Moscow would not have any World title in the last 20 years which is even more telling. And Kim herself from Vancouver would have won this years Worlds by over 30 points. I doubt there is hardly anyone who would even debate that.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by BmcC102 View Post
    Not to take anything away from Yu-na, but for me, Michelle really is the best female skater ever. (And this is coming from a Tara Lipinski, Sasha Cohen fan). Watching her skate last year to Winter Song just really sealed the deal for me.
    For me the best skater ever is between 3 women:

    Janet Lynn- best artistic skater ever
    Michelle Kwan- best combined technical/artistic skater ever
    Midori Ito- best technical skater ever

    Since Kwan is by far the more accomplished than the other two who didnt fulfill close to their potential medal wise due to a variety of factors it has to be her though. None of the 3 greatest ladies skaters of all time even has an Olympic Gold which is evidence of how overrated the Olympic Gold on its own is.

  12. #92
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    Yuna might be not as great as Kwan.

    But 'I' think Yuna is in her own unique league.
    If a future skater from weak federation and inferior infra(such as cold rinks causing injuries) accomplishes as Yuna,
    I finally will put the Singaporean or Argentine etc. skater in the same league with Yuna, sending her/him my deep admiration.
    Last edited by EricRohmer; 05-12-2011 at 05:11 AM.

  13. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Is there a single set of performances from anyone at Worlds this year that would have even placed on the podium at the last Olympics or at the 2009 Worlds? Obvious answer is no so enough said about the quality of the event. Miki Ando skated much better to win the bronze at the 09 Worlds than the gold in Moscow, and the 2010 Olympics was of a higher standard than the 2009 Worlds. And the gold performances from Moscow would not have any World title in the last 20 years which is even more telling. And Kim herself from Vancouver would have won this years Worlds by over 30 points. I doubt there is hardly anyone who would even debate that.
    I wasn't comparing it to the Olympics or any other events. I was saying the event in itself was not as bad as what people make it out to be. And from a judging point of view there was actually lot of good quality, particularly in components. And I could really appreciate Kim's performance because even though she wasn't on song, I still think she is an excellent skater and apart from a couple of mistakes, she can demonstrate why she is a medal worthy contender.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    For me the best skater ever is between 3 women:

    Janet Lynn- best artistic skater ever
    Michelle Kwan- best combined technical/artistic skater ever
    Midori Ito- best technical skater ever

    Since Kwan is by far the more accomplished than the other two who didnt fulfill close to their potential medal wise due to a variety of factors it has to be her though. None of the 3 greatest ladies skaters of all time even has an Olympic Gold which is evidence of how overrated the Olympic Gold on its own is.
    You are not consistent in your logic. You criticize YuNa for being only one time World Champion, but Janet was never a World Champion and Ito was only one time World Champion and no OGM. You think OGM is overrated but then WGM is certainly overrated, too.

    For me, YuNa is the best combined technical/artistic skater ever. I think she is at least as good as Midori technically. 3A does not represent all skating techniques.

    For the skating world, YuNa will be remembered by her Roxanne, Danse Macabre, Bond, Gershwin performances. She widened the horizon of figure skating. Was there her Danse-Macabre-like performances before YuNa? Artistry is the matter of apple or orange, and YuNa put a new delicious fruit on the plate.

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    As a fan of figure skating who doesn't skate and doesn't understand all the technical aspects of the sport, I don't get the whole Yuna thing. She just seems like she's posing all the time. Watching figure skating mainly for entertainment, I don't think what she does and what Michelle Kwan did is even remotely the same thing. Just watch her ATS shows from last year. Michelle barely did anything and still wiped the floor with her. Apples and oranges. One's a world class entertainer, the other an OGM. How you view them probably says more about you as a figure skating fan than it does about either of them.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakewood View Post
    You are not consistent in your logic. You criticize YuNa for being only one time World Champion, but Janet was never a World Champion and Ito was only one time World Champion and no OGM. You think OGM is overrated but then WGM is certainly overrated, too.

    For me, YuNa is the best combined technical/artistic skater ever. I think she is at least as good as Midori technically. 3A does not represent all skating techniques.

    For the skating world, YuNa will be remembered by her Roxanne, Danse Macabre, Bond, Gershwin performances. She widened the horizon of figure skating. Was there her Danse-Macabre-like performances before YuNa? Artistry is the matter of apple or orange, and YuNa put a new delicious fruit on the plate.
    The impact of Ito and Lynn transcends their medals. This is not the case with Yu Na Kim as she never took the technical nor artistic side of skating to a whole new level it had never seen before. Plus they competed in the era of compulsory figures, which brings a whole different spin on the results compared to the free skating only era. Both would have dominated for years without the figures.

    You think a skater who cant even do each of the 5 standard ladies triples, who has skated 2 clean long programs in the last 5 years, and who doesnt have great spins or amazing footwork, is as good or better than Ito technically? To each their own I guess.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakewood View Post
    For me, YuNa is the best combined technical/artistic skater ever. I think she is at least as good as Midori technically. 3A does not represent all skating techniques.
    I disagree. Have you seen Midori's jumps? All of her jumps were huge with great distance plus she had 6 different triple jumps. She had so many clean 7 triple programs. Her spins weren't that bad either. She also had one of the best flying sit spins in ladies skating. I do think Yuna is fast but so was Midori!! Midori had good footwork as well. I haven't seen anyone even come close to Midori technically.
    I truly think she could have had the quad toe if she didn't break her leg practicing the jump and stop practicing on it. That was when she was still in high school and she wasn't even putting 3 axel in her programs yet.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    The impact of Ito and Lynn transcends their medals. This is not the case with Yu Na Kim as she never took the technical nor artistic side of skating to a whole new level it had never seen before. Plus they competed in the era of compulsory figures, which brings a whole different spin on the results compared to the free skating only era. Both would have dominated for years without the figures.

    You think a skater who cant even do each of the 5 standard ladies triples, who has skated 2 clean long programs in the last 5 years, and who doesnt have great spins or amazing footwork, is as good or better than Ito technically? To each their own I guess.
    At least Yuna had her back to back clean programs with 3-3 under her arsenal at the Olympics with 50+ million people she carried and won gold at that. Not too shabby.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by ks777 View Post
    I disagree. Have you seen Midori's jumps? All of her jumps were huge with great distance plus she had 6 different triple jumps. She had so many clean 7 triple programs. Her spins weren't that bad either. She also had one of the best flying sit spins in ladies skating. I do think Yuna is fast but so was Midori!! Midori had good footwork as well. I haven't seen anyone even come close to Midori technically.
    I truly think she could have had the quad toe if she didn't break her leg practicing the jump and stop practicing on it. That was when she was still in high school and she wasn't even putting 3 axel in her programs yet.
    Jumping ability is not a technique. Technique is what you get by learning and practice. Midori was probably the greatest jumper in history, but was she the greatest technician ever? I don't think so.
    Anyway, as far as toe jumps are concerned, YuNa has no less jumping ability than Midori, I think and her 3-3 is better than Midori's. YuNa is very good at almost all elements. Her technical brilliance is well showed in her Gershwin performance in Vancouver. What a technical brilliance it was!
    Last edited by lakewood; 05-12-2011 at 07:18 AM.

  20. #100
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    There's really no consistency in judgejudy's opinions. If I remember correctly, judgejudy trashed the Zhangs for having no artistic skills/being dull years ago. However, just a few months ago, she posted a thread expressing lament that the Zhangs would never be World Champions. Now, she's trashing and mocking Kim when a year before, she was oozing with praise for Kim. Judgejudy places so much value on medals, and then considers skaters with less medals and no Olympic gold as being greater than Kim.

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