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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    But when you watch their Peruvian folk OD from last season you really don't think there's a reason to get excited for this team?
    IMO They just have IT. Shibs might be a cleaner team at this moment, but when I watch I/K I can't help wondering how amazing they are going to be and the wonderful programs (hopefully) that they will be capable of performing in the coming years as they mature even more. The possibility is endless. I had the same feeling when I first saw V/M too (unfortunately they have not grown into the team that I've always wanted them to become, but that's another story). No one knows what will become of I/K, but the potential makes the fans excited nonetheless.
    No I haven't seen their Peruvian folk OD, but I will certainly go and watch it. For me there have been only 2 teams that I've seen in their last yr of junior/1st yr of senior that I've gotten excited over - V&M and Shibs. I think both have "it" in spades. So now I&K come along and many many people seem to be very very excited about them, ubers even. Already. It puzzles me more than anything. That there's so much excitement about this team, and the almost knee-jerk dismissal of anything that comes out of the S&Z school.

    As for V&M not growing into the team you wanted them to become - I think it's a question of time - for her to get fully past her injury, and for them to get past the need to skate to something "safe" for the Olympics. Why would they experiment in an Olympic season? Anyway that's another topic.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asli View Post
    You and I are the only two people who like Schnittke here and there is nothing to do but to accept this fact.

    Third. And at last I can say it openly

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ituriel View Post
    Third. And at last I can say it openly
    Add me to that list too.

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    I find the whole I/K are doomed if they don't stay with Zhulin to be a bit? There are plenty of great coaches in this world some who have had more success than Zhulin. It is good that he is pacing this team, but I think the Russian federation has every reason to be upset about this teams progress. T hey have been inconsistent all season long. There's a thin line between not burning out, and not working hard enough. At the very least they should have been more consistent this season.

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ituriel View Post
    Third. And at last I can say it openly
    Me too ( I'd be 5th, so far)
    Did not like Mao and Schnittke ( not the fault of either), but loved I/K's Schnittke- and in fact, loved their whole SD. It was refreshing after the safety of most SD's music choices.
    improving my ballad- like lines

  6. #66
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    There are definitely things I like about I/K. I love their speed and I actually prefer their twizzles (when on) to anything the Shpilband teams do. Their choreography has ideas in it. But that's pretty much where my admiration ends.

    I don't see "it" that everyone else does (though I will say there I saw "something" in their performance at Euros). I don't see the "skating as one" that I love in dance nor do I see an interesting contrast that would make up for that.

  7. #67
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    Can someone explain to me this "skating as one" nonsense? And who came up with that as a standard for ice dancing?

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by millipied View Post
    Can someone explain to me this "skating as one" nonsense? And who came up with that as a standard for ice dancing?
    Far as I knew the whole '2 must skate as 1' thing, was a pairs ideal, not ice dance.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by millipied View Post
    Can someone explain to me this "skating as one" nonsense? And who came up with that as a standard for ice dancing?
    i don't know who came up with it but it's mentioned multiple times throughout the ISU criteria for PCS.

    Skating Skills:
    Pair Skating and Ice Dancing: Equal mastery of technique by both partners shown in unison.


    Transitions/Linking FW:
    Quality (including unison in Pair Skating and Ice Dancing)


    Performance/Execution
    Unison and “oneness” (Pair Skating and Ice Dancing)
    Each skater contributes equally toward achieving all six of the performance criteria


    Choreography:
    Shared Responsibility of Purpose (Pair Skating, Ice Dancing, and Synchronized)
    Each skater has equal roles in achieving the aesthetic pursuit of the composition with equal steps, movements, and a sense of purpose in unifying the composition


    Interpretation:
    Relationship between the partners reflecting the character of the music.
    Interpretive unison is an equal partnership with the same degree of sensitivity between partners not only to the music, but also to the equal understanding of the music’s nuances. There is an intimacy between the partners that is characterized by a feeling of “surrender” to the music and possibly to each other that creates an entity greater than the two of them.


    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf

  10. #70

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    I love I/K, but one thing that I've noticed is that they always seem to falter/mess up on the dance spins. Every time they change the position, you're always a little worried they can't coordinate their arms and legs into the right spots. When I watched their winning free dance to Schindler's Liszt and Junior World's, I thought it was a fluke, but they seem to have the same problem at every competition this year.

  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    But when you watch their Peruvian folk OD from last season you really don't think there's a reason to get excited for this team?
    .
    As a Peruvian I have to say a big fat BLAH!! to that program. There was nothing even remotely resembling of peruvian folk steps in "that" coreography, and their interpretation and choreo fell flat and childish to that beautiful sorrowful music. Plus I found their costumes almost as offensive as DomShabs aborigin OD.

    having said that, I&K are a marvelous team, specially her! and I do hope they medal at Sochi

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by zebobes View Post
    I love I/K, but one thing that I've noticed is that they always seem to falter/mess up on the dance spins. Every time they change the position, you're always a little worried they can't coordinate their arms and legs into the right spots. When I watched their winning free dance to Schindler's Liszt and Junior World's, I thought it was a fluke, but they seem to have the same problem at every competition this year.
    I agree they always mess up at the same spot - when she goes and grabs for the haircutter. This is something that needs to be addressed, as it kills the otherwise good speed and centering of the spin. Also, there is one lift in their FD that they seem to have trouble with, so that should be modified/worked on as well. I do really like their speed and attack, they just need some refinement and better unison.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiK View Post
    As a Peruvian I have to say a big fat BLAH!! to that program. There was nothing even remotely resembling of peruvian folk steps in "that" coreography, and their interpretation and choreo fell flat and childish to that beautiful sorrowful music. Plus I found their costumes almost as offensive as DomShabs aborigin OD.

    having said that, I&K are a marvelous team, specially her! and I do hope they medal at Sochi
    And THAT is objectivity

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by alilou View Post
    So now I&K come along and many many people seem to be very very excited about them, ubers even. Already. It puzzles me more than anything. That there's so much excitement about this team, and the almost knee-jerk dismissal of anything that comes out of the S&Z school.
    Perhaps the excitement has something to do with the search for the next stars of Russian dance. For years Russia dominated ice dance and had the runner up in place to ascend to the top position once the top team moved on. There were few but not a whole lot of exceptions to this process (A&P, while French, were acceptable in that at least half the team was Russian). For now, I&K look like the "next ones".

    I'm not saying this to criticize Russians - Americans do the same with ladies skaters and Canadians to a certain extent with men. When a country has a tradition of excellence in a discipline, there is a sense of unease - a feeling that something is missing - when no skater or skaters carry it on. And hence the search goes on.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiK View Post
    As a Peruvian I have to say a big fat BLAH!! to that program. There was nothing even remotely resembling of peruvian folk steps in "that" coreography, and their interpretation and choreo fell flat and childish to that beautiful sorrowful music. Plus I found their costumes almost as offensive as DomShabs aborigin OD.
    While I didn't find the costumes offensive I must say I pretty much agree with you re I&K's Peruvian OD - not Peruvian, and flat. While I was at it I watched Shibs and Paul&Islam's OD's - the top 3 at last yrs Junior worlds. Shibs were fun to watch, entertaining but sloppy, P&I did a good-enough-for-junior-team Flamenco. I remember being completely blow away by V&M when I saw them as juniors. I didn't really become a Shibs fan until this year after she grew. I'm captivated by their flow and lightness.

    While there may be something to what you say Japanfan, I think many of I&K's fans are not Russian. They just see something that I (and others) don't see, not yet anyway.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by alilou View Post
    So now I&K come along and many many people seem to be very very excited about them, ubers even. Already. It puzzles me more than anything. That there's so much excitement about this team, and the almost knee-jerk dismissal of anything that comes out of the S&Z school.
    I/K individually each have ice dance basics that are pretty much unmatched across the sport in its current state; only V/M are in that league. I/K have a whole package of skills that have become idealized in dance because so many teams have had success under the new judging system without them, moving up by utilizing COP, and other aspects of their skating to compensate.

    Among their strengths, I/K have deep fluid edges, matched feet on the ice as well as amazing free-leg unison, flow, excellent posture, nice arms and overall bodylines, beautifully pointed feet, and compliment each other well on the ice in terms of size, power, flexibility, and artistic nuance. Along with V/M, there is no other team in the field that comes close to possessing all of these basics like I/K.

    On top of that, I/K have amazing chemistry on the ice and lots of expression. All of this stuff doesn't automatically add up to great performance and technique, obviously, but it shows a great deal of potential. A lot of teams succeed because they can deliver strong performances, execute elements well, and consistently deliver their programs, but continue working on these basic skills that I/K already have in spades. I think that's most of the reason skating fans are flipping out over them.

    That said, there is a lot to be said for work ethic and delivery, and talent alone isn't going to win medals, as we've seen this season.

  17. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    Perhaps the excitement has something to do with the search for the next stars of Russian dance. For years Russia dominated ice dance and had the runner up in place to ascend to the top position once the top team moved on. There were few but not a whole lot of exceptions to this process (A&P, while French, were acceptable in that at least half the team was Russian). For now, I&K look like the "next ones".

    I'm not saying this to criticize Russians - Americans do the same with ladies skaters and Canadians to a certain extent with men. When a country has a tradition of excellence in a discipline, there is a sense of unease - a feeling that something is missing - when no skater or skaters carry it on. And hence the search goes on.
    ...while it might be true to a certain extent- about Russia, USA, and, yes, Canada, that kind of comment depresses me. Give the fans credit for choosing who they like. As somebody who has had favorite skaters from many skating countries, big and small, after I got over sports Nationalism in my mid-teens, I need to say-No; I like who I like.
    improving my ballad- like lines

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudy_Gumdrops View Post
    I too enjoy B&S and agree that they need better programs. They do remind me of D&S a bit. I think it's the long lines.

    Waltz of the Spirits is one of my fave FDs ever. I wish D&S hadn't diverged so much from that style of dance.
    Waltz of the Spirits is what made me fall in love with DomShabs. Sadly they never were able to come up with a program that matched that one. The closest they came was last seasons FD and even that one seemed watered down to accomodate the state Max's knees were in.

    I admit that this season, I've been off and on the board sporadically so I may have missed it but while I&K have fans who are enthusiastic about what their future holds I haven't seen any true ubers as of yet.

    Just taking an uneducated guess but perhaps some of what appears to be the "dismissal" of anything S/Z is due to the fact that for years the same qualities that are being rewarded in the S/Z skaters were widely criticized in other teams. Heck even in the past other S/Z teams were criticized for the same things that are now rewarded and justified.

    In another thread I mentioned how amazing a number of us felt S&P were in the 99/00 season and that some felt that S&P maybe should have finished higher in some of their competitions. Others explained that while S&P are sophisticated and polished and had fantastic programs that seemed just as good or better than some of the top teams they (due to their size) didn't have the speed and power some of the other teams did. According to those who saw them live, what the camera didn't catch was that S&P weren't quite strong enough to get the same power out of their stroking and thus didn't cover the ice as well.

    Well the Shibs strike me as being quite similar and without S&P's lines and posture. The Shibs are charming and musical but IMO still very immature. Depsite the fall, I feel that P&B have everything in spades over S&S. P&B's loss of the medal is because of the fall yet at the same time I feel as if the judges sent a message that P&B aren't that much better (or not better at all) than the Shibs. Or maybe they didn't want another uproar and having to be in the position of explaining why an imperfect team still beat a team who on the surface were clean.

    Of course every few years it seems as if the judges all of a sudden decide to change what it is they want to reward and one can only speculate why. Sadly the nature of icedance always leaves many questions and interpretations on why the judges placed who where.

    Speaking for myself, I don't think V&M should be included in the complaints about the S/Z monopoly. The only thing I could see that some could find fault with is that because of their coaches V&M haven't yet established themselves as a team who have done programs that are seen as classics by the majority; programs that have gotten everyone talking and agreeing about how good they are. I'm thinking back to A&P's Carmina Burana, DenStavs Handel or DelShoes Frida. When it comes to skating skills and the connection between the two partners V&M are beginning to peak in the area.

    While I&K are different in feel from V&M I also see the same "it" and have the same feeling that this team is going places that I got the first time I saw V&M. It is a bit disconcerting that aliona22 mentions work ethic or a lack of? when it comes to I&K. I hope that isn't the case and if it is it needs to be dealt with. ITA that talent alone won't get I&K to the top. As good as T&D were, even they wouldn't have accomplished what they did without being willing to put in the time in between competitions.

    Can I borrow the "I agree with Asli" banner too?

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    I have a question about I/K's work ethic.
    Are all those theories that they are somehow lacking in work ethic coming from TAT harping on Zhulin early in the season? That, possibly combined with their not-as-good-as-Euros FD at Worlds? If it's only that, it's really not enough hard data to support that claim.
    TAT ( I admire her, please not assume I am anti- Tarasova) has made plenty of politically motivated and/or manipulative statements in recent years about various teams. Publicly criticising Zhulin's training methods early in the season might have had a miriad of behind- the- scenes reasons, and not be based on hard fact. It is also known that Nikita had some back troubles in summer, and Zhulin took it easy on him because of that. Since then TAT went on record saying that she cries ( from overwhelming emotions) when she sees that team, and that Zhulin is a genius. No doubt after the Worlds they are back in the dog house.
    Now, maybe they are slackers- but is there anything to actually substantiate that?
    improving my ballad- like lines

  20. #80
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    The only thing I've heard about their work schedule was what Tarasova said in September: that they shouldn't have been given a six weeks summer vacation and that Zhulin doesn't spend enough time with them. I've read nothing whatsoever about Elena and Nikita's own work ethics. Just an urban myth IMO.

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