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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    My understanding is that as it is now, they will count the 2 highest scoring events of those three. That I think is unfair.
    I wonder if this application of 'score' rather than 'rank' means that the whole GP qualification moves from top 'points' rank to 6 highest score totals rank (for 2 events). That would be a major change

    I have been hoping they would move to that.

    That would mean that withdrawal from a particular event would not boost the chances of the remaining teams in the event to Q for Final ( a change that would make it fairer in my mind..and not as random as higher placement in a diminished field. Cup of Russia dance comes to mind <g>, where only 3 were left skating, I believe)

    Edited....but that would open the final event to skyhigh scoring to qualify an entry for the GPFinal if they are close to qualifying. I guess ranking and points each have drawbacks as a qualifying method
    Last edited by Sedge; 05-27-2011 at 07:02 PM. Reason: Last sentence

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    There would be several reasons to do the third one:
    1. Money
    2. Chance to get highest season best (doesn't season's best plays some role in the order skaters skate the SP at Europeans and worlds?)
    No, there'd be a reason to do a third event, but there'd be no reason for the ISU to assign a third event.

  3. #83
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    I have been to a GP where both seeded skaters withdrew and the field wasn`t as good as a senior B like Finlandia trophy. The top 6 skaters have the option to do an extra GP. From a ticket paying fan perspective, I find it to be a very good change.

  4. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by kirkbiggestfan View Post
    I have been to a GP where both seeded skaters withdrew and the field wasn`t as good as a senior B like Finlandia trophy. The top 6 skaters have the option to do an extra GP. From a ticket paying fan perspective, I find it to be a very good change.
    That's fair enough.. the 3 event rule is good for attracting the general audience but the cut of 2 spots is unnecesary, its not like they are gonna show up for the first group

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    Here's an idle thought... wouldn't it make more sense for the minimum GP qualifying score to be 2/3 of the highest GP/GPF score in each discipline?
    In other words, do not try to compare late-season championships performances, to which skaters aim to peak, to early-season GP performances. Much more sense than they tend to have.

    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe View Post
    Doing 3 events will also (in most cases) mean that the top skaters will be doing four competitions (3 events + GPF) over an 8-week period. For top skaters who also have their nationals in December (most except CAN and USA), that's five competitions in a 10-week period. IMO, that's a recipe for exhaustion.
    It's a konspiracy to help North American skaters. Blame Canada

    Given the drop in the number of spots, if the rule is that host federations must give at least one spot to each of the 1-24 SB/WR skaters/teams that was not guaranteed a spot before assigning a second, there aren't going to be that many teams other than the 1-12+returning skaters who will get two, and with the effects the non-counting, third event placement block, there won't be many with a chance of qualifying for GPF.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  6. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post

    Given the drop in the number of spots, if the rule is that host federations must give at least one spot to each of the 1-24 SB/WR skaters/teams that was not guaranteed a spot before assigning a second, there aren't going to be that many teams other than the 1-12+returning skaters who will get two, and with the effects the non-counting, third event placement block, there won't be many with a chance of qualifying for GPF.
    Maybe that's the purpose? If many skaters don't have second event, and then there is a group of the tops who has three events (and two best will count), who is the most likely to qualify to GPF? Logically, those with the most attempts.

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by kirkbiggestfan View Post
    I have been to a GP where both seeded skaters withdrew and the field wasn`t as good as a senior B like Finlandia trophy. The top 6 skaters have the option to do an extra GP. From a ticket paying fan perspective, I find it to be a very good change.
    Because of course a spectator getting to see top skaters is much more important than said skater's health.

  8. #88

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    After the first year, how many skaters will WANT to do three GP events plus the GP final plus (unless they're US or Canadian skaters or the dates conflict) a Nationals, all by December? It leaves very little time for training, and ups the chances of illness. I would think that quite a few coaches would be telling their athletes, "Don't."

  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    Because of course a spectator getting to see top skaters is much more important than said skater's health.
    Oh please they're not muppets. No one is putting a gun against their heads to do the 3rd event. I wouldnt even be surprised if only half or even of the seeded skaters do it anyways because it IS too exhausting and pointless for them .and if they still do it for the money is nothing to be ashamed of. FS is probably the only sport where i've seen the fans treating the athletes like fragile beings made of crystal who have no idea of what are they doing. I get it when it comes to the top ladies who are usually only teen girls but thankfully this year all top 6 are pretty grown up already.

  10. #90
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    According to this article, the JSF official said that they are going to send out a questionnaire to the skaters, but they think it would be difficult for them to enter 3 GP events this year due to the shortened off season.

    http://hochi.yomiuri.co.jp/sports/wi...OHT1T00273.htm

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiK View Post
    Oh please they're not muppets. No one is putting a gun against their heads to do the 3rd event.
    I doubt the Chinese Federation will allow P/T to skip a third GP event, since they get a cut of P/T's winnings.

    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    Maybe that's the purpose? If many skaters don't have second event, and then there is a group of the tops who has three events (and two best will count), who is the most likely to qualify to GPF? Logically, those with the most attempts.
    I'm wondering if the purpose is that, eventually, GP's will be down to one warm-up group of six for the singles, and that the competition will be down to two weekend days, with the SPs/SD on Saturday morning, and one or two of the FD/FSs on Sunday morning, with the gala in the afternoon or evening.

    Quote Originally Posted by kirkbiggestfan View Post
    I have been to a GP where both seeded skaters withdrew and the field wasn`t as good as a senior B like Finlandia trophy. The top 6 skaters have the option to do an extra GP. From a ticket paying fan perspective, I find it to be a very good change.
    Aside from the money, net of anything the skaters have to pay for coaches' travel and time and the impact to the training schedule, it might be better for the Europe-based skaters to do two GP events and a Senior B that earns points, since the travel won't be as extensive, and it's only the differential between the second- and third-highest scoring GP event that the skaters earn in WR points.

    The podium at an points-earning International B* earns 250/225/203 points. The difference at GPs between:

    1st/2nd: 40
    2nd/3rd: 36
    3rd/4th: 32

    *"International Senior Calendar Competitions, provided there are minimum 8 single skaters, 6 dance teams out of four ISU Members present respectively 5 Pairs out of three ISU Members;"

    Given the minimum score rules, more and more events might meet these criteria, and the top five would earn WR points at them.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  12. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    I doubt the Chinese Federation will allow P/T to skip a third GP event, since they get a cut of P/T's winnings.
    The Chineese may not allow P/T to skip the third event, but then again they will allow them to skip their nationals, whereas skaters from USA, Canada and Russia will not be able to miss their nationals, so at the end it will equal itself.

  13. #93

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    Skaters used to do 3 events all the time.

  14. #94
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    No pairs from the US qualify for three events. One from Canada will, assuming the ISU means 1-6 after substitutions (for Y/C), then Duhamel/Radford do. (If the ISU means strictly 1-6 at last year's Worlds, then no Canadian team does.)

    Russia, of course, has three in 1-6. If the Russian Federation, for whatever reason, wants its pairs to do three, then they can use European Championships to decide their National team and give byes to as many teams that it wants to or not weight Nationals results as heavily as GP and/or Russia's Cup events. I've never seen anything from the Russian Fed that guarantees a trip to Euros or Worlds to the National Championships, unlike USFS, which guarantees a Worlds spot to each age-qualifying national champion.

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Skatefan View Post
    Skaters used to do 3 events all the time.
    The top three skaters/teams were the only ones to do three events under CoP, and without a financial disincentive, some of them canceled along the way.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  15. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    The Chineese may not allow P/T to skip the third event, but then again they will allow them to skip their nationals, whereas skaters from USA, Canada and Russia will not be able to miss their nationals, so at the end it will equal itself.
    I was going to mention that too. There are inequities all over. Countries other than Canada and USA (some others?) hold nationals close to the end of the Gran Prix season so those skaters are at a disadvantage. Some countries don't require their top skaters to compete at a national championship to qualify for the big ISU events, some do. Four Continents is held closer to the World Championships than the European Championships so Four Continents skaters are at a disadvantage. European skaters have many more competitions close to home with less travel time and expense giving them an advantage over 4-Continent countries. On and on it goes guys. Some skaters are from rich families and can afford better training, choreographers, costuming, etc. Some come from strong skating federations that foot the bill. Some get to keep prize money, some have to give a good portion to their federation. Some need the prize money and some don't. Some top 5 skaters never even get a chance at international fame because of the depth in their own countries. Never has been a level playing field and never will be.

    By the way, that doesn't mean that I think we shouldn't continue to point out things we think are unfair to certain skaters, just that I hope we will remember there are many many factors.

  16. #96

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    Personally I think that the GP should be like this:

    Weeks 1&2: SC, SA
    Week 3: OFF
    Weeks 4&5: TEB, CoR
    Week 6: OFF
    Weeks 7&8: CoC, NHK
    Week 9: OFF
    Week 10: GPF

    Any of weeks 1-2, 4-5, 7-8 can be flipped around. It gives skaters time to breathe.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayar View Post
    Personally I think that the GP should be like this:

    Weeks 1&2: SC, SA
    Week 3: OFF
    Weeks 4&5: TEB, CoR
    Week 6: OFF
    Weeks 7&8: CoC, NHK
    Week 9: OFF
    Week 10: GPF

    Any of weeks 1-2, 4-5, 7-8 can be flipped around. It gives skaters time to breathe.
    This is a great idea in theory, but with would conflict with many countries nationals or be forced to start the season earlier.

  18. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Russia, of course, has three in 1-6. If the Russian Federation, for whatever reason, wants its pairs to do three, then they can use European Championships to decide their National team and give byes to as many teams that it wants to or not weight Nationals results as heavily as GP and/or Russia's Cup events. I've never seen anything from the Russian Fed that guarantees a trip to Euros or Worlds to the National Championships, unlike USFS, which guarantees a Worlds spot to each age-qualifying national champion.
    It is a great idea to decide who goes to Worlds based on Europeans, but how would you decide on who goes to Europeans? Russia has a very strong field in pairs, and quite strong in dance too, so the nationals are really important competition that decides who goes to Europeans. There is about 6 pair teams who would all be capable to place on 2-4 place at Europeans (if we think that Germans will be first, which isn't given because of the Russian teams could manage to beat the Germans). In fact, I read in some interview that their nationals are considered more difficult competition than any grand prix event. How would you decide who can skip nationals? Considering that Russia had three pairs at 1-6 at Worlds, if all of them are excused from nationals because all of them would do three grand prix event and possibly GPF, how will you decide who will go to Europeans? Would you send to Europeans any of those three pairs because they had three grand prix events, or would you send the pair who won their nationals?

  19. #99
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    Doesn't the Russian Fed normally use Europeans to decide who goes to Worlds/ I/K and Gachinsky were 3rd and 2nd at their Nationals, but by being the 2nd Russian dance and 1st man, they made the Worlds team.

    France, during the Olympic season, gave P/B and D/S the international nods (Euros, Olympics) despite both missing Nationals. I think it comes down to who is clearly ahead of the other teams.

    Truthfully, though, I'd be very surprised if more than two or three skaters/teams select three events.

  20. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    Doesn't the Russian Fed normally use Europeans to decide who goes to Worlds/ I/K and Gachinsky were 3rd and 2nd at their Nationals, but by being the 2nd Russian dance and 1st man, they made the Worlds team.

    France, during the Olympic season, gave P/B and D/S the international nods (Euros, Olympics) despite both missing Nationals. I think it comes down to who is clearly ahead of the other teams.

    Truthfully, though, I'd be very surprised if more than two or three skaters/teams select three events.
    Yes, they do use Europeans to decide who goes to worlds, but at the same time they use the Russian championships to decide who goes to Europeans. So if you don't do the Russian championships (or don't do very well), you don't go to Europeans and then you don't go to worlds. There may be some (rare) exceptions, but my point was that if they excuse three teams from their nationals because three teams would do 3 grand prix events and possibly GPF, why bother with organising nationals if they send all three teams to europeans and then worlds? What would be worth winning their nationals if the winner wouldn't be sent anywhere?

    I wouldn't compare the situation with France, because France doesn't have that strong field so there it was quite obvious who would be sent.

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