2011-12 Grand Prix Pre-announcement Thread

[kwanfan1818]

Not guaranteed a spot, but eligible for the alternates list are any skater who was part of a pair or dance team that was eligible for a spot under the criteria in the last two seasons and who plans to compete in 2011-12 with a new partner.

This includes:

Yankowskas
Coughlin
Denney
Barrett
della Monica
Kocon
Simpson
Miller
Murkhortova (from 2010)
Hay (from 2010)
Dube (from 2010)
Davison (from 2010)

M. Hubbell
K. Hubbell
Domnina (from 2010)
Shabalin (from 2010)
A. Zaretsky (from 2010)
R. Zaretsky (from 2010)


I don't have printouts of last year's season's bests to know if Morand/Dorsaz and/or Sulej/Chruscinski had a top 24 season's best last year; if they did, they'd qualify for one if any teamed up with new partners. Same with Mallory/Rand, Navarro/Bommentre, and Rubleva/Schefer, not that it's likely that any of them (except maybe Mallory) or either of the Kerrs or Brodeur/Mattatal teaming up with new partners.

The way the rule is set up, any skater or team who was seeded 1-6 in any World Championship but did not skate last season can skate GP, if he/she/they agree to do two GPs. Most likely to take advantage of this are:

Plushenko, assuming he is reinstated in time for the GP selection
Zhang/Zhang

Duhamel/Radford should get the seeded spot no longer needed by Yankowskas/Coughlin, because they have the highest season's best score of all of the couples not in the top 6 in Moscow and their score at 4C's (181.79) surpassed #6 Y/C's 175.94 at Worlds. Were Pang/Tong to retire, then Sui/Han, with 179.04 from GPF, would be seeded as well.

I assume any of the new partnerships and returning skaters would have provisional picks, pending a minimum score before their GP event.

[HisWeirness]

The ISU has released the schedule of international competitions for the 2011-12 season.

Grand Prix Events:
October 21-23, Skate America, Ontario, California USA
October 27-30, Skate Canada, Mississauga, Ontario CAN
November 4-6, Cup of China, Shanghai, China
November 11-13, NHK Trophy, Sapporo, Japan
November 18-20, Trophee Eric Bompard, Paris, France
November 25-27, Cup of Russia, Moscow, Russia
December 8-11, Grand Prix Final, Quebec City, Quebec, Canada

[icellist]

dying to know whether caroline zhang ha a chance for a comeback!
this headcase version of her makes her so much more likable, i'm caring less about her bitchy face and rooting more for the underdog XD

[taz'smum]

If a skater is invited to a senior grand prix, do they still have to have a seasons best of the minimum score of 123.58 or is it waived because they are invited?

[SUN]

This is what I heard abou the coming GP rules changes.

1. Only 1-12 Worlds finishers are guaranted events (1-6 may do 3 if they want).
2. Wording for Junior Worlds medalists, JGPF medalists, 1-24 SB and 1-24 WS is different now. Last year they were guaranteed min 1 event. Now it says they'll get 1 event provided there are open spots.

3. 1-6 WC finishers may do 3 events. 2 best results will count for the Final. By June 1 they are supposed to inform the ISU if they plan to do 3 or 2 events. If somebody opted for 3, and got 3 but will decide later to withdraw (even for serious medical reasons, as everybody withdraws for medical reasons) from the 3rd event, there will be prize money deduction for the previous 2 events. On the contrary-doing 3 events will add bonus to the prize money.

4. Host countries can still eneter anybody for home events, reardless of the ratings, SB, etc.

All this is in line with the ISU policy that Senior GP is not a development program but a commercial series for top skaters to attract TV. They were really disappointed last year when really weak skaters were invited as substitutes.

[SUN]

If a skater is invited to a senior grand prix, do they still have to have a seasons best of the minimum score of 123.58 or is it waived because they are invited?

If a skater is below the minimum-he can not be nvited.

[Sylvia]

Thanks, SUN. Are you hearing that the GP selection meeting will take place sometime in late June?

[SUN]

Thanks, SUN. Are you hearing that the GP selection meeting will take place sometime in late June?

June 24-26 in Paris.

[kwanfan1818]

2. Wording for Junior Worlds medalists, JGPF medalists, 1-24 SB and 1-24 WS is different now. Last year they were guaranteed min 1 event. Now it says they'll get 1 event provided there are open spots.

If every 1-6 skater/team does three, and every 7-12 skater/team does two, that means they will take 30 (3*6 + 2*6) of a total of 48 (8*6) or 60 (10*6) spots. How could there not be open spots for the 1-24 SB, 1-24 WS, JGPF and Jr. World medalists, especially since the 1-12 skaters have half of the 1-24 SB's in any season and a chunk of the 1-24 WS, with another few 1-24 WS taken by teams that have retired or split?

What is the point of this?

[SUN]

If every 1-6 skater/team does three, and every 7-12 skater/team does two, that means they will take 30 (3*6 + 2*6) of a total of 48 (8*6) or 60 (10*6) spots. How could there not be open spots for the 1-24 SB, 1-24 WS, JGPF and Jr. World medalists, especially since the 1-12 skaters have half of the 1-24 SB's in any season and a chunk of the 1-24 WS, with another few 1-24 WS taken by teams that have retired or split?

What is the point of this?

You forgot about the home entries-some of them can be without any ratings and will take several spots.

But IMO the point is that it could be the case that not all from these categories will get 1 event, so now they can not guarantee this.

[Proustable]

If every 1-6 skater/team does three, and every 7-12 skater/team does two, that means they will take 30 (3*6 + 2*6) of a total of 48 (8*6) or 60 (10*6) spots. How could there not be open spots for the 1-24 SB, 1-24 WS, JGPF and Jr. World medalists, especially since the 1-12 skaters have half of the 1-24 SB's in any season and a chunk of the 1-24 WS, with another few 1-24 WS taken by teams that have retired or split?

What is the point of this?

Host nations will use some slots for skaters that don't qualify. Theoretically (though it won't happen), Canada could expend it's three pairs slots on Dube/Wolfe, Hole/Johnson, and Fake/New Team. Duhamel/Radford and Moore-Towers/Moscovitch still get two GPs, but they take those slots elsewhere.

Realistically, it just makes it easier for the ISU. They don't have to guarantee but they can follow through if possible.

[Proustable]

Thanks, SUN. Very much appreciated.

[kwanfan1818]

You forgot about the home entries-some of them can be without any ratings and will take several spots.

But IMO the point is that it could be the case that not all from these categories will get 1 event, so now they can not guarantee this.

I also left out the provision that skaters who missed last season, but were seeded in the past, can return if they do 2 GPs. I've assumed this in my calculations, and also that part of any agreement reinstating Plushenko will be that he agrees to 2 GPs. You are right that it is possible that there would not be enough spots left to guarantee spots to all 1-24 SB/WS and JGPF/JW skaters/teams, due to a combination of the decrease in fields and the ability of 1-6 to do three GPs.

I apologize for not being able to get my head around who is not age-eligible for juniors and seniors, and some of the above may not be age-eligible for seniors or may remain in juniors.

These are the skaters/teams who would have been guaranteed a spot under last year's rules, but not under the new ones:

Men

Rippon: SB, WS
Hanyu: SB, WS
Abbott: SB, WS
Reynolds: SB, WS
Mroz: SB, WS
Van der Perren: SB, WS
Mahbanoozadeh: SB
Ten: SB
Preaubert: SB, WS
Contesti: SB
Liebers: SB
Tanaka: WS
Majorov: SB, JW
Rogozine: WS, JW, JGPF
Yan: JGPF
Schultheiss: WS

Retired/Not Skating: Bradley, Sawyer, Lysacek

Total: 16

Available spots: 60
If 1-6 use 3 and 7-12 use 2: (30)
Plushenko (2)

The additional federation choices are anywhere from (9), if the feds take all eight 1-12 skaters and RUS takes Plushenko for CoR, to (18), if the feds take only other skaters, leaving 10-19 open spots.

Ladies

Nagasu: SB, WS
Sotnikova: SB, JGPF, JW
Suzuki: SB, WS
Tuktamisheva: SB, JW, JGPF
Gao: SB, WS
Wagner: SB
Pfaneuf: SB, WS
Siraj: SB
Zadwazski: SB, WS, JW
Lacoste: SB
Lam: SB
Helgesson, V: WS
Marchei: WS
Imai: WS
Helgesson, J: WS
Shelepen: WS
Lepisto: WS
Li: WS

Retired/Not Skating: Meier, Rochette

Total: 18

Available spots: 60
If 1-6 use 3 and 7-12 use 2: (30)
Lepisto (2)

The additional federation choices are anywhere from (11), if the feds take all seven 1-12 skaters, to (18), if the feds take only other skaters, or anywhere from 10-17 spots.

Pairs

Iliushechkina/Maisuradze: SB, WS
Lawrence/Swiegers: SB, WS
Gerbolt/Enbert: SB
Castelli/Shnapir: SB
Stolbova/Klimov: SB, WS, JGPF, JW
Zhang/Wang: SB, WS
Marley/Brubaker: SB
Kemp/King: WS
Dong/Wu: WS
Kadlecova/Bidar: WS
Yu/Jun: JGPF

Retired/Split: Brodeur/Mattatall, Denney/Barrett, Simpson/Miller, Della-Monica/Kocon

Sui/Han will be 1-12, since their SB not only beat Y/C's, but everyone else in the 7-12 slots except Duhamel/Radford, who get Y/C's seeded spot. Zhang/Zhang are guaranteed 2 if they return and agree to 2.

Total: 11

Available spots: 48
If 1-6 use 3 and 7-12 use 2: (30)
Zhang/Zhang (2)

The additional federation choices are anywhere from (8), if the feds take all nine 1-12 skaters and CHN chooses Zhang/Zhang for COC, to (18), if the feds take only other skaters, or anywhere from -2 to 8 spots.

It is technically possible for there to be too many pairs guaranteed spots if every federation were to choose pairs that did not place 1-12 and the Zhangs return, but I think there's a proviso for them to expand the field, if necessary, and no one in the bucket would get any.


Ice/Dance

Monko/Khvaliavin: SB, WS, JW, JGPF
Riazanova/Tkachenko: SB, WS
Faiella/Scali: SB, WS
Hoffmann/Zavozin: SB, WS
Paul/Islam: SB
Pukash/Guerriero: SB, WS, JW
Myslicekova/Novak: SB, WS
Sinistsina/Zhiganshin: SB, JGPF
Lichtman/Copely: SB, JW
Reed/Reed: SB, WS
Tobias/Stagniunas: SB
Stepanov/Bukin: JGPF
Ralph/Hill: WS
Huang/Zheng: WS
Goshkova/Butikov: WS (split?)
Coomes/Buckland: WS

Retired/Split: Kerr/Kerr, Hubbells

Total: 16

Available spots: 48
If 1-6 use 3 and 7-12 use 2: (30)

The Federation choices are anywhere from (9), if the feds take all nine 1-12 skaters, to (18), if the feds take only other skaters, or anywhere from 0-9 spots.

[kwanfan1818]

(The last one was long with lots of data, so I'm splitting this into a second post. I hope that's okay.)

Questions:

Is there a pecking order for filling out the rosters? For example, if there are 12 open spots for dance after the federation picks, do the federations have to choose the top teams and leave out the bottom four (with some kinds of hierarchy)? Or can they choose Coomes/Buckland to make far less competition for their skaters? (There's a pecking order for substitutes this year.)

After assigning fed picks and guaranteed spots, do they get to assign a skater/team from the eligible list to two spots, while others get none?

If a skater/team is not chosen from the eligible list, does the skater/team then have to establish a season's World Ranking to get on the substitute list? If so, either placement on the eligible list is meaningless after the initial invitations, because it is co-mingled with anyone in the top 75 SB (or other adjusted number) with a minimum score, or the 1-24 WS/SB list + JW/JGPF medalist becomes the only eligible list, unless they come up with more new criteria.

Will next year's season's World Ranking only consider Senior B's, or also qualifying events?

If 1-6 are assigned to three, then how do they decide which three events get the extra 1-3 seeds, vs. protecting their own top skaters with the extra 4-6 seeds? Will this be distributed by discipline, i.e. each Fed has to take two 1-3 seeds for two of the four disciplines? What if the skater/team turns down the third event?


Comments:

Since the only way to qualify for enough competitions to make the GPF is to place 1-12 at last year's Worlds or to take the year off (voluntarily or through injury), this 1. screws skaters from countries with great depth -- Russia has five pairs in the top 12 SB scores -- and 2. gives the skaters incentive to take the year off, especially if they are on the fence.

In the past few years, almost every skater/team who's been guaranteed one spot has gotten two in the initial round, before any substitutions, which gave them all a chance to qualify for GPF. This year, with the number of spots down and the top six having the option for a third -- in the past, top three only were assigned three events -- it's hard to see who but the 1-12 and returning skaters will get an opportunity to compete in two events and qualify for GPF, when there might not be enough slots to go around to give them one. As far as selection strategy is concerned, isn't it, for example, in someone's best interest for skaters outside the 1-12/returning, like Faiella/Scali or Abbott, to get one GP and not be eligible for GPF -- especially now that 1-6 skaters with three get to keep their best two scores -- or even none, if there's no hierarchy for selection, and the number of open spots after guaranteed/returning spots have been filled?

The host federations have to decide whether choose otherwise ineligible skaters and/or 1-12 skaters and to risk having 1-24/JW/JGPF skaters left out altogether, because there are more eligible skaters than open slots, or to "protect" those skaters with host choices, knowing that the 1-12 skaters are guaranteed spots elsewhere.

I would love to hear this year's behind-the-scenes negotiations between federations...

What skaters/teams really want to skate three GPs? It pretty much ruins the fall training schedule, and penalties for giving back prize money for pulling out of events are incentive to skate injured or ill to fulfill the obligation.

[JJH]

These changes seem ill-conceived and short-sighted.

[hoptoad]

Cutting the number of entries is the worst part, imo.

Can someone post the minimum score required for each discipline? Do all the skaters 'guaranteed' one spot qualify? In pairs especially, I think the min score was pretty high. I was wondering in particular about Marley/Brubaker.

[Proustable]

PAIRS: 145.3 - the top 23 on the SB list (Marley/Brubaker are 24th)

MEN: 187.32, 45th

DANCE: 123.51, 37th

LADIES: 134.23, 48th

[hoptoad]

So they are not even eligible as a host pick?

Seems crazy to me.

[Sylvia]

Posted up thread:

4. Host countries can still enter anybody for home events, regardless of the ratings, SB, etc.

I think the following skaters/teams are likely to return to the JGP:

I apologize for not being able to get my head around who is not age-eligible for juniors and seniors, and some of the above may not be age-eligible for seniors or may remain in juniors.

Men
Keiji Tanaka (JPN): WS
Han Yan (CHN): JGPF

Ladies
Yasmin Siraj (USA): SB
Vanessa Lam (USA): SB
Zijun Li (CHN): WS

Pairs
Kadlecova/Bidar (CZE): WS
Yu/Jin (CHN): JGPF

Ice Dance
Sinitsina/Zhiganshin (RUS): SB, JGPF
Stepanov/Bukin (RUS): JGPF

[hoptoad]

If a skater is below the minimum-he can not be nvited.

(#26) This sounds like even host picks have to meet the minimum score.