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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Again, there is nothing wrong with pumping oneself up, and expressing the desire to claim some hardware, a la Ryan Bradley. For me, Chan is pumping himself up in an off-putting way. I think the over-the-top praise Chan has received from supporters has gone to his head. Chan's bravado and some of his comments show his immaturity -- but no skater, and no human being is necessarily immune to that failing.
    The only person who is on Chan's level is Takahashi. He knows it and doesn't mind letting the media know that he knows it.

    His "I will dominate/channel Tiger Woods etc." approach isn't that uncommon as a psychological strategy. Yagudin and Plushenko, among others, have taken that approach. Yagudin was very arrogant but no one faulted him for saying "winning Olympic gold is my destiny". Plushenko is far less popular, so his assertions of "I'm #1" received much more criticism.

    The downside of this strategy is that you need to put your money where your mouth is and look like a fool if you don't. Like Mike Weiss in 2003 with his Hummer ready to celebrate his gold medal.


    Frankly, if Chan can bring the goods consistently and dominate, without favoritism from the judges, that will be a feather in his cap, and maybe a crown on his head.
    Discussions on this board indicate that there will always be criticisms that the judges favour Chan, no matter how well he skates. There are a group of fans who just love to hate him and find fault wherever they can.

    Chan may indeed win multiple World championships, but there are too many excellent skaters right now, not to mention younger ones coming up, for Chan to claim he will be the King of the Hill for years to come.
    But not are yet at Chan or Takahashi's level. Their may be some who have the goods (i.e. Dennis Ten), but they don't yet have the consistency.

    Chan's window of opportunity is now and he may be able to stay ahead of the pack for a few years. It is not as easy to dominate as it was under 6.0, but if Patrick's consistency continues to get better, he'll be the alpha in the pack for a time.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    The only person who is on Chan's level is Takahashi. He knows it and doesn't mind letting the media know that he knows it.
    Woah now, is that a fact! Sounds like a quote the other competitors should take inspiration from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    His "I will dominate/channel Tiger Woods etc." approach isn't that uncommon as a psychological strategy. Yagudin and Plushenko, among others, have taken that approach. Yagudin was very arrogant but no one faulted him for saying "winning Olympic gold is my destiny". Plushenko is far less popular, so his assertions of "I'm #1" received much more criticism...
    Try as I might, I can't recall Yagudin or Plushenko ever mentioning or hinting at channeling Tiger Woods as an "approach or psychological strategy." Sure Yagudin was arrogant at times -- lots of Russian skaters sometimes seem to be perhaps, and maybe its mostly a facade. Plushenko's arrogance for me, is dwarfed by his charm and fierce desire to win. Surely, you are aware that Plushenko was not always considered unpopular with fans. Unfortunately, IMO, the judges overscoring him in the 2006 Olympics sp led to a lot of criticism, which in part I think fueled his desire to return to the Olympics in 2010. Being at the top for so many years led to Plushy taking his dominance for granted. He's an example of a skater who relied too heavily on his jumping ability and forgot to work more on his artistic side. He seems to be trying to do that now. For the most part, Yagudin and Plushenko were bitter rivals more arrogant toward each other than anyone else. Yagudin mellowed somewhat when he switched to TAT and backed up his arrogance with hard work and his resulting Olympic gold medal-winning performances at the 2002 Olympics. I do think Chan is heeding Plushy's and others' words about the importance of landing quads. I don't care so much about quads, and I think the sport has been uncertain too about their significance, as evidenced by the fluctuation in how they have been scored.


    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    Discussions on this board indicate that there will always be criticisms that the judges favour Chan, no matter how well he skates. There are a group of fans who just love to hate him and find fault wherever they can...
    Uhhh, well, I suppose most skaters wouldn't necessarily take it as a criticism for fans to suggest they are judges' favorites. That can actually be a good thing, and then the task becomes trying to back up that favoritism with superlative performances. That's really the best psychological strategy, IMO, because it's based on working hard at proving you are the best. In any case, judges love to give high marks to skaters they feel are consistently reliable, no matter what weaknesses they may have. The danger is a la Plushenko -- dominating for many years and beginning to feel entitled, and failing to work on improving all aspects of your skating.


    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    ... Chan's window of opportunity is now and he may be able to stay ahead of the pack for a few years. It is not as easy to dominate as it was under 6.0, but if Patrick's consistency continues to get better, he'll be the alpha in the pack for a time.
    Yeah, okay, if you say so. Perhaps you're right. I happen to think there are a lot of other skaters out there who are priming to give him a run for his meal money. We're sure to find out over time, as the World turns.

    I'm just eager to see some excellent performances combining all the goods that complete skaters possess.

  3. #83
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    I had no idea that there were new PCS criteria this season:

    1. Humility
    2. Charm
    3. Press relations
    4. Not being off-putting to anyone

    I must have missed the ISU Communication.

    Will the PC Police stop at nothing
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

  4. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Woah now, is that a fact!
    Please list the skaters that are on the same level as Takahashi and Chan.


    Try as I might, I can't recall Yagudin or Plushenko ever mentioning or hinting at channeling Tiger Woods as an "approach or psychological strategy."
    If you read my post I did not say that channeling Tiger Woods was the strategy. Rather, I said that "I will dominate" is the strategy and gave several examples of skaters who have used it.

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    Pray tell, kwanfan1818, quite fascinating. News to me too. Fortunately, or unfortunately (interpret as ye will), its only the CoP enforcers who will "stop at nothing" to determine the top finishers at Worlds.

    Japanfan, I repeat: Woah now, is that a fact! Sounds like a quote the other competitors should take inspiration from. I did not agree or disagree with your contention. Maybe I should ask you where Chan is quoted in the media stating that Takahashi is the only skater on his level. If you need a list of the competitors, I suggest you go to the ISU or official Worlds 2011 websites. You might wish to re-read your own post, or edit it if you prefer. None of this is like facing courtroom cross-examination serious. Enjoy Worlds everyone, and I'm sure we'll all root for the skaters we love to watch.
    Last edited by aftershocks; 04-27-2011 at 04:14 AM.

  6. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    If you need a list of the competitors, I suggest you go to the ISU or official Worlds 2011 websites.
    Stats to follow. They speak for themselves. The few skaters who come close to Chan and Takahashi have yet to develop the same consistency, and that is part of being level.

    None of this is like facing courtroom cross-examination serious. Enjoy Worlds everyone, and I'm sure we'll all root for the skaters we love to watch.
    So you can't or won't name any skaters. That really helps your argument. I guess you just enjoy being contrary and blowing hot air.

    Men to receive level 4 in footwork: Takahashi and Chan


    Top 10 ISU Scores 2010/2011

    259.75Patrick CHAN
    248.07Takahiko KOZUKA
    244.00Daisuke TAKAHASHI
    242.81Nobunari ODA
    233.04Adam RIPPON
    230.31Tomas VERNER
    229.38Florent AMODIOF
    228.01Yuzuru HANYUJ
    225.71Jeremy ABBOTT
    223.01Brian JOUBER

    Top 10 ISU Scores 2009/2010

    257.70Daisuke TAKAHASHI
    257.67Evan LYSACEK
    256.36Evgeni PLUSHENKO
    247.22Patrick CHAN
    246.72 Stephane LAMBIEL
    243.36Nobunari ODAJ
    241.74Brian JOUBERT
    238.87Johnny WEIR
    236.06Michal BREZINA
    235.38Jeremy ABBOTT

    Top 10 Personal Bests

    Daisuke TAKAHASHI 264.41S
    2Patrick CHAN259.75S
    3Evgeni PLUSHENKO 258.33S
    4Evan LYSACEK257.67S
    5Takahiko KOZUKA 248.07S
    6Stephane LAMBIEL246.72S
    7Jeffrey BUTTLE245.17S
    8Nobunari ODAJ244.56S
    9Brian JOUBERT 241.7
    4S 10Johnny WEIR

  7. #87
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    Javier Fernandez has also received level four for footwork (Worlds 2010, LP)

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatingpj View Post
    Handicapping the men's field in Moscow, what are the chances that the bar that Chan set at Canadians is the first of many for him or once in a lifetime? Does Chan's outstanding National win make him the man to beat?
    Nationals is very different from an international competition. Skating well at Nationals is not the same as "manning up" at Worlds.

    I don't think his Nationals win makes Chan the one to beat. His scores when he didn't skate well make him the man to beat.

    I like Patrick's skating. However, I preferTakahishi's and I'd love to see him win. And it's not because of the triple axel. (I'd take Lambiel over both of them.) I happen to fall into the category of people who don't perceive Patrick as having as much connection to the music. I'm not saying no musicality. Just not as much. IMO, of course.

  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    Javier Fernandez has also received level four for footwork (Worlds 2010, LP)
    Thanks. I meant to edit my post and add 'so far as I know' to my statement about Level 4 footwork, as I thought there might be a few other skaters who had achieved it.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    Stats to follow. They speak for themselves. The few skaters who come close to Chan and Takahashi have yet to develop the same consistency, and that is part of being level.
    Yeah, the thing about CoP is it makes all the numbers crunching lovers happy. Nice list of stats. My opinion is stats are more important to baseball than they are to figure skating. I trust my own eyes first, when I view a figure skating competition. One of the more unpredictable things under the new system is how much movement there can be in the standings during the course of one event, let alone a whole season. The list and the numbers might in fact be more interesting if they actually took into account the full talent and abilities of all the top skaters in the world and not just those who have the opportunity to compete at certain competitions based on the current arcane set-up run by the ISU and the federations. Obviously, there are quite a few skaters on your list who are not competing at Worlds this year, so I guess that makes things even more level for Chan. Oh, but forgive me, I forgot he's better than everyone else in the World.

    Go Dai! Go Kosuka! Go Verner! Go Bradley! Go Amodio! Go Joubert! Go Ross! Go Richard! Go Reynolds! Go Schultheiss! Go Gonzalez! Go Ten! Go Contesti! And even tho' I'm not partial to them, I'll give a call out to Brezina and Oda as well. Have to say I was never as turned off by Chan as I've become turned off by some of his more obsessive fans.


    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    So you can't or won't name any skaters. That really helps your argument. I guess you just enjoy being contrary and blowing hot air.
    What argument? Like I said, I didn't agree or disagree with your contention that Chan thinks Takahashi is the only skater on his level. "Since you can't or won't" point out where in the media Chan is quoted as saying Takahashi is the only skater on his level, "I guess you just enjoy being contrary and blowing hot air," and blowing off about lists and stats. Me, I'd rather watch the skaters skate.

  11. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Have to say I was never as turned off by Chan as I've become turned off by some of his more obsessive fans.
    Eh... I don't think the Chanatics are anywhere near as bad as the obsessive Johnny Weir fans
    "Marge, if you're going to get mad at me every time I do something stupid, then I guess I'm just going to have to stop doing stupid things!" - Homer Simpson in the Mr. Plow episode

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    Quote Originally Posted by professordeb View Post
    I suspect that the "little respect" for not being consistent on the 3A only applies to Chan.
    This made me smile. Touche. Oh the rivers of prejudice sure run deep, especially in these irreverent discussions of select fanaticals, made free by this medium, to bully and to bitch.

  13. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post



    Discussions on this board indicate that there will always be criticisms that the judges favour Chan, no matter how well he skates. There are a group of fans who just love to hate him and find fault wherever they can.

    .
    For me he's a classic case of the skater favoured by judges for years who thanks to his increased confidence finally ends up delivering performances to deserve the high marks. It's much less stressful to compete when you know that 3 falls a trip won't cost you a medal.

    As frustrating as I find it, it seems that it's almost part of an ISU policy to reintroduce edging as the main desirable quality in skating. I find it a shame that skaters whose edges I find equally impressive, and skating far more exciting - like Verner - don't get the same treatment.
    That said, Chan generally does amazingly all season and then faulters at major championships. Marks are often very polarised in GPs, and then at worlds, judges often go with who skates clean (thankfully).
    I think Chan will only lose this if he bombs completely in the SP, but he's Chan, and he can. So who knows...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    What I dislike about Chan is his big mouth. May be the reporter misquoted him- may be I should give him the benefit of the doubt, for now.

    I prefer people who are humble about their talents and their successes. Chan has the talent; the success has been there, but not so great that he has to compare himself with the likes of Woods or Federer. "Dominate the sport"? I hope this motivates his competitors. It will be good for the sport to have a rivalry, and not just one skater being handed the title, no matter what he does in the actual competition (referring to the GP).

    I would like to enjoy watching his skating without his mouth spoiling it.
    Yeah...that's what we want. Shut up and skate.

    ???


    It's funny, in many ways I can see why certain skaters are easier for fans to love, and why some skaters leave us so divided. A lot of the discord stems from reasons so unrelated to the skating itself....like language for instance. Takahashi and Oda and the the like....we get their "personas" in snippets, through translators, in simple amicable short terms rehearsed by them through their language coaches. Which isn't to say that they aren't every bit as sweet and humble as they come across in the media. I just think it's kind of curious, how quickly the irate FSU'er forgets just how many constructs are at work to deliver them their images of skater personas.

    And it's funny too, how the skaters whom the fans have access to...both culturally and through shared language, whose personas are somehow constructed so as to create some negative image, it's funny how these skaters have provoked such prejudice so as to make it impossible for certain skating fans to simply enjoy the beautiful, athletic, hyper human expression the skaters have worked through sweat and tears to achieve.

    I wish that everyone who appreciates skating could appreciate the amazing qualities of Chan's SKATING. And realize the finally, really, his "persona", his "how dare he spoil it all with...I dunno...having a voice?!!"....all of that really doesn't matter beans. Who cares?! His skating is special, and his ability is something to be in awe of.

    Anyway,...I try to avoid any thread that devolves into persona-bashing. They always leave such a terrible taste in my mouth. And I never understand the need to talk negatively about a skater, be it personal or about their skate. So on these occasions when I cannot heed my own better judgement, and wander into these mean spirited discussions, I tend to wonder....who are we people? We're awful and vindictive, and bullying, especially in these seemingly zero consequence forums. WHY?
    Last edited by jl22aries; 04-27-2011 at 08:04 AM. Reason: spelling...always spelling

  15. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    The only person who is on Chan's level is Takahashi. He knows it and doesn't mind letting the media know that he knows it.

    His "I will dominate/channel Tiger Woods etc." approach isn't that uncommon as a psychological strategy. Yagudin and Plushenko, among others, have taken that approach. Yagudin was very arrogant but no one faulted him for saying "winning Olympic gold is my destiny". Plushenko is far less popular, so his assertions of "I'm #1" received much more criticism.

    The downside of this strategy is that you need to put your money where your mouth is and look like a fool if you don't. Like Mike Weiss in 2003 with his Hummer ready to celebrate his gold medal.





    Discussions on this board indicate that there will always be criticisms that the judges favour Chan, no matter how well he skates. There are a group of fans who just love to hate him and find fault wherever they can.



    But not are yet at Chan or Takahashi's level. Their may be some who have the goods (i.e. Dennis Ten), but they don't yet have the consistency.

    Chan's window of opportunity is now and he may be able to stay ahead of the pack for a few years. It is not as easy to dominate as it was under 6.0, but if Patrick's consistency continues to get better, he'll be the alpha in the pack for a time.
    Actually Takahashi is a much better artist than Chan, and has great speed across the ice. When Takahashi made mistakes, he was penalized by the judges on the tech marks; Chan was not. IN spite of those favors by the judges Chan showed no humility. That's why there is so much criticism of Chan.

    You used Yagudin and Plushenko as examples of skater pumping themselves up, but even after winning 3 or 4 world championships and at least one Olympic medal, neither of these two made the claim that they were invincible, or they belonged to a club like Woods or Federer. Each knew he was at least one of the top two, but they did not talk about dominating the sport, may be because their skating did the talking for them. There is nothing wrong in a skater (or any athlete) saying I want to win a championship, but to say I am going to dominate the sport before winning a single title is a bit too much. May be it's a matter of taste.

    Chan has not won anything bigger than a few GP titles and the Canadian nationals. He is setting his sight on becoming unbeatable, dominant? Nothing wrong with setting goals within himself and talking about them to his coach, family and close friends. For him to make a public statement like that, at this time is a sign of immaturity and hubris. I remember how much Johnny Weir was criticized for expressing himself too openly. Why can't we criticize Chan for a similar (and far worse) transgression?

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post

    Go Dai! Go Kosuka! Go Verner! Go Bradley! Go Amodio! Go Joubert! Go Ross! Go Richard! Go Reynolds! Go Schultheiss! Go Gonzalez! Go Ten! Go Contesti! And even tho' I'm not partial to them, I'll give a call out to Brezina and Oda as well. Have to say I was never as turned off by Chan as I've become turned off by some of his more obsessive fans.

    And what I can't quite get a handle on is the stance you've taken in this particular discussion board. Maybe you're not quite aware that the impression you're leaving...well on me at least...has been incredibly sour. I've read a lot of irreverent drivel in these seemingly consequence free interweb discussions and I've rarely felt such a negative reaction. Why are you so contemptuous of those who would enjoy his skating? How are you aftershocks? How was your day? I kind of want to take you out to coffee and just...say take it easy!
    Last edited by jl22aries; 04-27-2011 at 08:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    The downside of this strategy is that you need to put your money where your mouth is and look like a fool if you don't. Like Mike Weiss in 2003 with his Hummer ready to celebrate his gold medal.
    I never thought that Weiss believed to win the gold medal. I saw the Hummer just as a way to push himself really strongly to skate well and it did not succeed so well in spite of the car, LOL.

    About Chan I think that he just should skate and shut up.... Better tactics to give interviews after the event and not before.
    Last edited by Jaana; 04-27-2011 at 07:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jl22aries View Post
    Yeah...that's what we want. Shut up and skate.

    ???


    It's funny, in many ways I can see why certain skaters are easier for fans to love, and why some skaters leave us so divided. A lot of the discord stems from reasons so unrelated to the skating itself....like language for instance. Takahashi and Oda and the the like....we get their "personas" in snippets, through translators, in simple amicable short terms rehearsed by them through their language coaches. Which isn't to say that they aren't every bit as sweet and humble as they come across in the media. I just think it's kind of curious, how quickly the irate FSU'er forgets just how many constructs are at work to deliver them their images of skater personas.

    And it's funny too, how the skaters whom the fans have access to...both culturally and through shared language, whose personas are somehow constructed so as to create some negative image, it's funny how these skaters have provoked such prejudice so as to make it impossible for certain skating fans to simply enjoy the beautiful, athletic, hyper human expression the skaters have worked through sweat and tears to achieve.

    I wish that everyone who appreciates skating could appreciate the amazing qualities of Chan's SKATING. And realize the finally, really, his "persona", his "how dare he spoil it all with...I dunno...having a voice?!!"....all of that really doesn't matter beans. Who cares?! His skating is special, and his ability is something to be in awe of.

    Anyway,...I try to avoid any thread that devolves into persona-bashing. They always leave such a terrible taste in my mouth. And I never understand the need to talk negatively about a skater, be it personal or about their skate. So on these occasions when I cannot head my own better judgement, and wander into these mean spirited discussions, I tend to wonder....who are we people? We're awful and vindictive, and bullying, especially in these seemingly zero consequence forums. WHY?
    Thank you so much for this. I'm so glad you wandered in here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Actually Takahashi is a much better artist than Chan, and has great speed across the ice. When Takahashi made mistakes, he was penalized by the judges on the tech marks; Chan was not. IN spite of those favors by the judges Chan showed no humility. That's why there is so much criticism of Chan.

    You used Yagudin and Plushenko as examples of skater pumping themselves up, but even after winning 3 or 4 world championships and at least one Olympic medal, neither of these two made the claim that they were invincible, or they belonged to a club like Woods or Federer. Each knew he was at least one of the top two, but they did not talk about dominating the sport, may be because their skating did the talking for them. There is nothing wrong in a skater (or any athlete) saying I want to win a championship, but to say I am going to dominate the sport before winning a single title is a bit too much. May be it's a matter of taste.
    Chan was always penalised on his tech marks for the mistakes he made. It's the PCS marks that got people riled up. You saying he showed no humility just indicates that you didn't read all the articles about him during the GP series. He certainly expressed embarrassment and regret re his GP performances.

    And let's just clear up once and for all Patrick did not say he is going to dominate the sport, or that he is a member of a club of elite athletes like Federer. He indicated that he'd like to be, that he has ambitions to be, not that he is. Neither Yagudin nor Plushenko claimed they were invincible. Well neither did Chan. Why did you think he did Did you not read the article?

    Here's the quote
    He hopes this breakthrough season means he's turned a corner on his career for good, and his ultimate vision for his career is within his grasp. Chan, a big fan of bold statements, said he'd like to dominate the event for years to come. Think what Wayne Gretzky did for hockey, or Tiger Woods for golf.

    "It's a dream, it's go big or go home for me, reach for the best," said Chan, dressed in shorts and T-shirt after his practice, a tattoo of the Olympic rings adorning his left calf muscle. "There's always that one athlete that dominates in every sport. Tennis, it's Roger Federer at one point, Tiger Woods in golf at one point. It's kind of like a club."


    He never said he's done it for god's sake, just that that's what he striving for.

    Yay for ambition. Or should he be all meek and mild and say he just wants to skate his best?
    Last edited by alilou; 04-27-2011 at 07:59 AM.

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    Re Chan: we all might want to remember that he has never been a world champion. EVER. Yes, that may change this week. But his self-imposed comparisons to Federer and Woods are, at this point, a little bit... embarrassing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vmfan89 View Post
    I don't really think that Chan is the man to beat. He is one of the favorites, but with the Japanese, the French, the Czechs, I would say he has some pretty tough competition.
    Amodio and Joubert are no competition for Chan right now, even if he werent such a judges favorite. Neither are Brezina and Verner really, when he lost to Verner in Russia he had the equivalent of 6 falls worth of mistakes atleast. The Japanese perhaps, but they all have major questions marks floating around them in different ways.

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