View Poll Results: Better skater- Yamaguchi or Yu Na Kim

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  • Yu Na Kim

    143 63.27%
  • Yamaguchi

    83 36.73%
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  1. #121
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    Yu Na can do a triple loop. She has done some very good ones in the past. With her oft injured hip and how COP works it afforded her the luxury to take out the triple that gives her greatest risk of injury though.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Yu Na can do a triple loop. She has done some very good ones in the past. With her oft injured hip and how COP works it afforded her the luxury to take out the triple that gives her greatest risk of injury though.
    I have only seen her fall on the loop in competitions. I have yet to see her land one.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by ks777 View Post
    I have only seen her fall on the loop in competitions. I have yet to see her land one.
    She landed the loop in her GP events in 2007- Cup of China and Cup of Russia.
    As far as I know, those are the only ones she landed in her senior career.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by ks777 View Post
    I can't believe some people( you can always find them under yuna threads protecting the threads) think Yuna, who can't even do a 3loop, is better jumper than Midori. what a joke.
    LOL,
    I don't think anyone thinks YuNa is a better jumper.
    The best jumper in history is Midori Ito, that's a fact. And Tonya Harding is probably another great jumper.
    But I understand people saying that YuNa has a better jumping technique.
    Her jumping technqiue on jumps is amazing. This is unbelievable what she can do with her thin body. Her 3 Lutz is probably the best ever in term of technique, height, distance.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by ks777 View Post
    I can't believe some people( you can always find them under yuna threads protecting the threads) think Yuna, who can't even do a 3loop, is better jumper than Midori. what a joke.
    Well, I doubt they watched skating prior to CoP (or when Yuna started skating), so can't really blame them.

  6. #126
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    Gotta love all this chip shot posts..

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    LOL,
    Her jumping technqiue on jumps is amazing. This is unbelievable what she can do with her thin body. Her 3 Lutz is probably the best ever in term of technique, height, distance.
    Yea, but saying that she's the best 3-3 jumper ever, including the men is pushing it a little. Her great technique allows her to jump as well as the men in terms of quality but Midori's natural talent allowed her to jumped even better than the men of her era at times. There lies the difference.

  8. #128
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    Besides flutzs, at GS forum I have heard Midori jumped sometimes lips.
    Maybe Tonya Harding is the best jumper..?
    Last edited by EricRohmer; 05-18-2011 at 06:01 AM.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by ks777 View Post
    Her jumps WERE spectacular. Have you seen Midori's height on her jumps? and not just her 3 axel. Her 3loop, 3flip, 3axel, 3lutz(I don't know if she flutzed or not, didn't matter back then) 3toe, and 3sal had great height, distance and flowing landing to them. 2a-3?? That's not even hard for Midori. Midori mostly put her 3-3 at the end of her LP.

    Wow, I wouldn't call her the most consistant and spectacular 3-3 jumper ever, male or female. You do realize, guys are doing much harder combinations? with greater height and distance?

    I can't believe some people( you can always find them under yuna threads protecting the threads) think Yuna, who can't even do a 3loop, is better jumper than Midori. what a joke.
    Ok, lutz doesn't matter.

    Yuna did land a 3 loop on her LP during 2007 Cup of Russia though but to say that she can't do a 3 loop?

    It's true that lowerthelore exaggerated it a bit much but "some" (and they will call it crazy bots) are just expressing their opinions.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    LOL,
    I don't think anyone thinks YuNa is a better jumper.
    The best jumper in history is Midori Ito, that's a fact. And Tonya Harding is probably another great jumper.
    But I understand people saying that YuNa has a better jumping technique.
    Her jumping technqiue on jumps is amazing. This is unbelievable what she can do with her thin body. Her 3 Lutz is probably the best ever in term of technique, height, distance.
    ITA. I think Ito was amazing also because of the sheer joy she seemed to exude, plus despite not getting the best marks for artistry, she actually had wonderful presentation skills -- better than some of today's skaters. She was not good in figures, but at least she had to learn figures, so I wonder if that is really true that she flutzed or lipsed on her lutz and flip. One other thing, I don't care about CoP, no skater (nor said skater's fans) in this era can claim a skater is the greatest ever if that skater doesn't do ALL the jumps in competition, period!

  11. #131
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    Flutzing and lipping were not issues when Ito was competing. Flutzing only became in issue in the mid 90's and lipping only a few years ago.

    Just in terms of speed, height and variety and number of triples landed Ito is still untouched.

  12. #132
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    Sorry about being late in getting back to this..

    I’d like to say, I don’t appreciate the way some words in my post were taken out of its context by some people (not totally unexpected though, given certain posters’ propensity).

    It’s a fact that Ito was an amazing skater with monstrous jumps. But in the particular context in my original post, I limited the meaning of the word “spectacular” by qualifying it as “Michael Jordan poetic spectacular.” Anybody familiar with the Jordan in his prime would get this. Griffey Jr. also had it. So did Couples with his effortless swing. I agree that Ito was a phenomenal jumper, but I wouldn’t call her jumps technically flawless or picture perfect. And she didn’t have proper edges on her toe jumps. Those are facts in my book, and that keeps me from calling her the best ever, even though I agree on that she’s one of the best and had the biggest 3As along with Harding’s.

    About Kim, I stand by my statement that she’s ONE OF the most consistent and spectacular 3-3 jumpers ever, male or female (I never said she’s THE best). Her 3-3s have no less wow factor than Ito’s 3As. In many aspects her 3-3s are comparable to the best among the men’s. And her consistency with her 3-3 in big events has been phenomenal, missing on it only once in 8 trips to Worlds & Olympics (including two Junior Worlds) in a total of 14 attempts. Each has her own strengths, but as I said earlier, if I have to choose between the two, I would pick Kim, on her advantage in pure technique and form.
    Last edited by lowtherlore; 05-18-2011 at 01:42 PM.

  13. #133
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    Ito had the 3A and 3L, but Yuna has better 3Lz and triple-triples.

    Problem with Ito was that she had a big ugly wrap and her trademark 3A was MIA in the biggest competition of her career. WTF is the point of having a jump if you cant do it right when it counts the most?

    Yuna, OTOH, landed all her jumps cleanly during Vancouver Olys and got her nice and fat OGM. No matter what kind of shit her haters try to throw at her, she will always be the greatest Olympic champion in ladies figure skating unless someone can out do her in the future.

  14. #134
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    My feeling about skaters today needing to do all the jumps before they can be declared the greatest ever, has nothing to do with specific words used by another poster. I'm not quoting any particular poster in this instance. Among the issue I take with CoP is the apparent thinking or strategy TPTB seem to have no problem with, that its just fine for skaters to leave out one or more of their weaker jumps.

    Sure Mafke, probably one of the reasons flutzing and lipping was not an issue in Ito's time is because the need to practice figures helped most skaters gain control of their edges. The fact Ito was not good at figures may mean she didn't have great edge control. Still I'd love to see clips where Ito flutzed and lipped, or does it just seem that way to fans of the CoP generation? Are slo-mo close-ups available?

    Yeah Rumblefish, Ito didn't land her first 3axel attempt at '92 Olympics, but it wasn't completely missing in action, as she perfectly landed her second attempt later in her program. Actually, Ito skated lights-out Olympic programs in 1988, but had to "wait her turn." For some reason, Ito's leg wrap doesn't bother me as much as Yu Na's ugly leg position in her layback spin, her wobbly spirals, lack of great leg height in her spirals (although she has made improvements), and the fact (beaten to death, I know) that Yu Na doesn't point her feet. Kind of hard with boots on sure, but noticeable especially when you are a skater that has such grace and elegance otherwise, not to mention a ballerina-type body.
    Last edited by aftershocks; 05-18-2011 at 11:42 AM.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post
    Flutzing and lipping were not issues when Ito was competing. Flutzing only became in issue in the mid 90's and lipping only a few years ago.

    Just in terms of speed, height and variety and number of triples landed Ito is still untouched.
    I doubt what you are saying is true. If flutzing and lipping had not been an issue in old days, we probably wouldn't have lutz and flip as two disticnt types of jumps as we do today.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Yeah Rumblefish, Ito didn't land her first 3axel attempt at '92 Olympics, but it wasn't completely missing in action, as she perfectly landed her second attempt later in her program. Actually, Ito skated lights-out Olympic programs in 1988, but had to "wait her turn." For some reason, Ito's leg wrap doesn't bother me as much as Yu Na's ugly leg position in her layback spin, her wobbly spirals, lack of great leg height in her spirals (although she has made improvements), and the fact (beaten to death, I know) that Yu Na doesn't point her feet. Kind of hard with boots on sure, but noticeable especially when you are a skater that has such grace and elegance otherwise, not to mention a ballerina-type body.
    Ito's 3A wasn't there for her all through the 92 Olys. She wasn't confident of landing it in SP, so she played it safe going for 3lutz which she fell on anyways. She did land her 2nd attempt in FS, and I give credit to her gutsiness to go for a 2nd one.

    You said that you don't mind Ito's wrapped leg. For me, a wrap is more of a technical issue rather than an aesthetic one. IMO, Ito would have been much more consistent at landing her big jumps if she had a nice tight air positons, enabling her to check out of her jumps in time. Who knows? She might have won in Albertville if she had a sounder technique.

    You bring up over discussed issue of Yuna's toe point again, but all I have to say is that even with her unpointed toe, she received 9s in her components marks at Olympics, and it certainely didn't prevent her from getting the gold.

  17. #137
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    ^^ You are right Rumblefish, Yu Na's weaker points did not prevent her from winning gold at the Olympics, and I'm happy for her, as she was carrying an entire country on her back. She has a sweetness and a grace about her. She's beautiful and has gorgeous technique on her jumps. She also has a reserved quality that may be why I don't feel any emotional connection to her skating. I think her programs at this past Worlds are really wonderful, but were not performed up to her level. Hopefully, she will retain them and develop them further. The question is, does she have the fire and the desire to continue skating competitively?

    What you say about Ito's leg wrap being a technique issue is probably true, but of course the way the wrap looks to some in performance does involve aesthetics. Not sure why the leg wrap happened or why it wasn't corrected --maybe her coaches didn't want to mess with her too much in that area, since her jumps were so powerful and explosive. Maybe she was taught wrong but her fed saw nothing wrong with it, or if they did, it was felt better not to try and refine her jump technique and risk messing with her natural ability. Ito was so strong in most areas of her skating and such a dynamo -- she skated with such joy and energy, and her jumps were so high, especially comparative to her small stature, it was probably hard for audiences to believe what they were seeing.

    I wish we didn't have CoP to make skaters and everyone else feel it's okay to leave out a jump you don't perform well. I don't think that helps the sport overall. As far as sp at 2010 Olympics, Yu Na obviously deserved to win, but not by that margin. I think it is silly to put a competition out of reach, when in fact they didn't give Mao enough credit. Mao was competitive with her programs, but Yu Na deserved first place in both programs and the gold overall. Just why must they make it so ridiculous? Yu Na has weaknesses that the judges tend to ignore. The scores should have been closer in the sp.

    I say the same about 2006 Olympic sp when Plushy scored so high ... ridiculous. One could argue that Johnny Weir had a better sp there, but of course he didn't have Plushy's rep, and there was no question that TBTB (including judges) wanted Plushy to win the gold -- it was his as the marks in the sp proved. I say the same about Chan's sp at this past Worlds. The placement of first was of course correct without a doubt, but the high marks and the margin between Chan and Dai in the sp was ridiculous, as Chan IMO is overmarked in some areas. Dai was not at his best, but he skated well in the sp. Others will argue that the quads gave Chan the high scores. Sure, but still the margin was ridiculous, and many fans feel the same way.

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    ^^ You are right Rumblefish, Yu Na's weaker points did not prevent her from winning gold at the Olympics, and I'm happy for her, as she was carrying an entire country on her back. She has a sweetness and a grace about her. She's beautiful and has gorgeous technique on her jumps. She also has a reserved quality that may be why I don't feel any emotional connection to her skating. I think her programs at this past Worlds are really wonderful, but were not performed up to her level. Hopefully, she will retain them and develop them further. The question is, does she have the fire and the desire to continue skating competitively?
    You are entitled to your opinions regarding whatever weak points you find in Yuna's skating. But please don't assume everyone else has same opinions like yours. Not everyone think toe-point is a must feature in figure skating. Davis & White has to have the laziest free leg positions ever and guess what? They won the gold this year. Unlike ladies singles, Ice dancing is a discipline where free leg positions actually matter IMO.

    Also, you might find Yuna Kim's skating reserved and thus don't get emotionally connected, but I saw plenty of fire during her El Tango de Roxanne and Dance Macabre programs. In this year's programs, I felt warmth watching her perform like I did when I was watching Michelle Kwan at her best. IMO, she made lots of strides bringing out emotions through her skate. Like I stated above, stuff like fire and emotion are really subjective and there is no right answer. All I can say is it not only depends on performance ability of a skater, but also on willingness of the audience to embrace the performance.


    What you say about Ito's leg wrap being a technique issue is probably true, but of course the way the wrap looks to some in performance does involve aesthetics. Not sure why the leg wrap happened or why it wasn't corrected --maybe her coaches didn't want to mess with her too much in that area, since her jumps were so powerful and explosive. Maybe she was taught wrong but her fed saw nothing wrong with it, or if they did, it was felt better not to try and refine her jump technique and risk messing with her natural ability. Ito was so strong in most areas of her skating and such a dynamo -- she skated with such joy and energy, and her jumps were so high, especially comparative to her small stature, it was probably hard for audiences to believe what they were seeing.
    I have respect for Ito. She brought lots of energy and spunk as wells as her phenomenal jumping ability. But IMO she didn't fully develop as an artistic skater before she turned pro. I actually found her performances during her ill-fated return to amateur competition in 1996 the most pleasing artistically.

    I wish we didn't have CoP to make skaters and everyone else feel it's okay to leave out a jump you don't perform well. I don't think that helps the sport overall. As far as sp at 2010 Olympics, Yu Na obviously deserved to win, but not by that margin. I think it is silly to put a competition out of reach, when in fact they didn't give Mao enough credit. Mao was competitive with her programs, but Yu Na deserved first place in both programs and the gold overall. Just why must they make it so ridiculous? Yu Na has weaknesses that the judges tend to ignore. The scores should have been closer in the sp.
    Skaters leaving out their nemesis jumps is a tactical issue under marking system we have today. Only Joannie Rochette did all 5 standard triple jumps IIRC in Vancouver, and no one did in Moscow this past month. Rochette was well rewarded in the Olys with a bronze medal for doing so although she didn't have triple-triples nor 3A like her competitors.

    For scoring at Vancouver Olys, I really don't remember any problem aside from Ando getting overmarked in the SP and Flatt getting low-balled in the FS. If you raise any specific issues regarding marking of certain elements or components, I would be willing to look it up and discuss further.

    I say the same about 2006 Olympic sp when Plushy scored so high ... ridiculous. One could argue that Johnny Weir had a better sp there, but of course he didn't have Plushy's rep, and there was no question that TBTB (including judges) wanted Plushy to win the gold -- it was his as the marks in the sp proved. I say the same about Chan's sp at this past Worlds. The placement of first was of course correct without a doubt, but the high marks and the margin between Chan and Dai in the sp was ridiculous, as Chan IMO is overmarked in some areas. Dai was not at his best, but he skated well in the sp. Others will argue that the quads gave Chan the high scores. Sure, but still the margin was ridiculous, and many fans feel the same way.
    Plushy getting gigantic marks in Torino was due to CoP being relatively new and even less accurate then it is today IMO. Plushy's PCS was a mere extension of his old 2nd mark under 6.0 era.

    For Chan's SP marks this year, I did think it was rather high. Having said that, I also want to add that he deserved at least a 7 to 8 point margin compared to the rest. It was Chan's best SP performance of the season aside from his nationals. I also think Takahashi did not skate his best in SP. His 3A was questionable in rotation and I felt he was sluggish overall.
    Last edited by RumbleFish; 05-18-2011 at 02:33 PM.

  19. #139

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    I am reading the new posts with interest but one thing I must strongly to disagree is the idea of pushing the sport means having to penalising someone who chose not to do certain jumps or the idea everyone need to have complete set of jumps to be considered as worthy.

    The reality with learning and improving anything at a masterful level to its peak of perfection and beyond is naturally focusing on the detailing. Invest time to refine and improve, to make it bigger, better, faster, stronger than ever before, hence push the 'sporting' aspect. True expertise are about individual specialities, otherwise they will only produce generalist and master of none.

    It has always been the biggest problem with COP, they churn out cookie cutter skaters that are at the peril of ISU judging system (An organisation with its sets of problems that has nothing to do with what goes on the ice), is that what figure skating comes to?

    In a strenuous sport like figure skating especially for the ladies, there's only so much time one can spent on training, pushing their bodies to their limits and maximise their ability to be competitive but ALSO still find rooms for self satisfaction which are the key motivator in doing anything. E.g For the sport, for the art, to do the big trick nobody can, to win, for fame, fortune etc..

    There had been criticisms on the sport hasn't moved on from a decade+ ago, and that programs were not as difficult or impressive as before, that the skaters weren't as innovative as before, yet surely it is because of the limitations it places on the skaters on what they are allowed to do without being penalised enforces them to train certain ways, satisfy certain criteria, counting the spins, elements (Oda), rather than be completely free in their FS and be all they can be?

    By being completely free, maybe we will see more interesting programs, even new innovative moves along the way? It will be far more entertain and may be bring the audience back to be in awe of their favourite moves being performed in whatever format the skater chose to showcase it. It would be the spectacular of quality over quantity. That surely is what should be about pushing the sport, rather than having too many cooks/ingredients spoils the broth.
    Last edited by os168; 05-18-2011 at 02:35 PM.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    whole post
    I totally agree.
    Current CoP is only good for comparing skaters with same cookie cutter elements and doesn't render skaters to innovate.

    How many ladies were doing 3T-3T in the SP and 2A-3T in the FS this year?
    How much longer can we put up with watching skaters peform ugly broken leg spins?

    Ice dance is the worst of all disciplines. It has become how fast you can twizzle and how many times you can rotate with your partner hanging over your shoulders.
    There isn't dance in ice dance anymore. SIGH

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