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  1. #61
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    Also about the 2010 Olympic Men's skaters, they all were subpar. If you take her Program Components and use the men's PCS factor (2 instead of 1.6)
    Yuna Kim would have won the Men's Freeskate even with only 7 jumps. She would have had 168 points.

  2. #62

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    There are so many things to love in those programs!

    Yagudin!

    I love Abt's footwork and the really cool entrance to his quad combination!

    I love how Goebel's jumps land on crescendos in the music!

    And now I've got to go back and watch the rest.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    There are so many things to love in those programs!

    Yagudin!

    I love Abt's footwork and the really cool entrance to his quad combination!

    I love how Goebel's jumps land on crescendos in the music!

    And now I've got to go back and watch the rest.
    I love his Quad Salchow. Nice contrast to all the quad toes. (Although I love both)
    Another cool combo that I love was the one Plushenko did in the FS. He did Triple Axel 1/2 Loop Triple Flip

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daria View Post
    This is an answer to fandango's post too, of course.

    Come on. An Olympic champion is an Olympic champion and using quotation marks to show disdain for those skaters who weren't brilhant (under personal conceptions) is just disrespectful. Actually, I see similarities between Evan and Plushenko: both had problems with injuries before the games and skated "conservatives" but clean programs to win gold. All this sarcasm about who is a real worthy champion just put skaters effort in a trash can... Evan was not my favorite in Vancouver and Plushy's performance in 2006 was supbar, but they were unquestionable winners in their respective competitions.
    ITA. Well put.
    Congrats to my ♥Baroque Rock Princess Adelina♥Meryl&Charlie♥Tatiana&Maxim♥!Team ♥Mirai♥Adam♥Julia♥

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I disagree. Quads are not the only kind of risks or challenges to oneself. Full upper body movement in step sequences (including, yes, arm thrashing) is a risk. Difficult spin positions that challenge balance are a risk. Deep edges are a risk. Difficult entries or exits from jumps and spins are a risk. Including variety steps, turns, and highlight moves between elements rather than just simple turns, crossovers, gliding on two feet, and other simple skating is a risk. Skating with attack and energy instead of staying in one's comfort zone is a risk.

    Skating a program full of all of the above is much more risky than skating a simple program with the same jump content. How much some of the above makes up for including one quad vs. leaving it out (assuming one is capable of attempting one) is up for debate. But I think it's fair to say that in 2010 Plushenko left out a lot more of that stuff than he had in 2002, even accounting for the change of rules and judging system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daria View Post
    This is an answer to fandango's post too, of course.

    Come on. An Olympic champion is an Olympic champion and using quotation marks to show disdain for those skaters who weren't brilliant (under personal conceptions) is just disrespectful. Actually, I see similarities between Evan and Plushenko: both had problems with injuries before the games and skated "conservatively" but clean programs to win gold. All this sarcasm about who is a real worthy champion just put skaters effort in a trash can... Evan was not my favorite in Vancouver and Plushy's performance in 2006 was supbar, but they were unquestionable winners in their respective competitions.
    Thank you both. I couldn't have stated this better.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    So just because you skate for a particular reason, you somehow are attributing your desires in your own skating to not one or two but an entire generation of skaters and claiming they forget why they skated in the first place? Really?
    Well, why else are they skating? Because if they're just skating for money then I lose my respect for them. Why else does someone skate if not for the love of it? You tell me.

    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Plushenko in 2010 was about 55% the skater and even jumper he was in 2006 and still nearly beat Evan anyway.
    A friend of mine said something very true:

    "Just remember, Plushenko's WORST was only scored 1.21 points lower than Lysacek's BEST."

    It makes me laugh every time because it's true!

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    gkelly, Daria, and paskatefan, thanks for your posts.

  8. #68
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    Vancouver 2010 Men's event will go down in history as one of the most devastating competitions ever.

    I think it's a drama and a real shame that so many great, gifted, talented guys simply didn't get their stuff together ... and let such a klutz walk away with the Gold medal ...

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zokko! View Post
    Vancouver 2010 Men's event will go down in history as one of the most devastating competitions ever.

    I think it's a drama and a real shame that so many great, gifted, talented guys simply didn't get their stuff together ... and let such a klutz walk away with the Gold medal ...
    That I agree. I think the judges were ready to give it to Takahashi or Lambiel if they would just deliver more.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    That I agree. I think the judges were ready to give it to Takahashi or Lambiel if they would just deliver more.
    So true. Sadly who really thought either of those two would put it together enough given their history, in addition to their recent history with injuries.

  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Yagudin in 2002, Kulik in 1998, and Plushenko in 2006 were all much better than Evan in 2010 and would have blown him out of the water under any scoring system. Plushenko in 2010 was about 55% the skater and even jumper he was in 2006 and still nearly beat Evan anyway. Petrenko and Urmanov were 12 and 14 years earlier so you cant really compare. Brian Boitano in 1988 though, a full 18 years earlier, was also clearly better, atleast in the LP segment.
    I think you are holding Lysaceck to the worst of COP and allowing the rest to escape its complications, like ultra harsh (pre-2011) penalties for underrotations, insistence on proper take off edges and the dread footwork.

    That said, I think Lysaceck would have had a hard time making the '88 podium. We have been blessed with some brilliant men's skaters in the past 25 years.

    But I'd love to see where his skating would have gone if he didn't have to work on his flip entrance edge and the footwork. And let's not get started about the underrotation penality.

    When Lysacek competed in 2009 and 2010, if a skater fell on a quad toe, and it was deemed underrotated, the skater would get a BIG FAT ZERO!!

    None of the other quad kings ever had to deal with that kind of pressure, except Plushy in 2010. Personally, I think the age was more of a contribution to Plushy's decline then pressure, but still!
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    I think you are holding Lysaceck to the worst of COP and allowing the rest to escape its complications, like ultra harsh (pre-2011) penalties for underrotations, insistence on proper take off edges and the dread footwork.

    That said, I think Lysaceck would have had a hard time making the '88 podium. We have been blessed with some brilliant men's skaters in the past 25 years.

    But I'd love to see where his skating would have gone if he didn't have to work on his flip entrance edge and the footwork. And let's not get started about the underrotation penality.

    When Lysacek competed in 2009 and 2010, if a skater fell on a quad toe, and it was deemed underrotated, the skater would get a BIG FAT ZERO!!

    None of the other quad kings ever had to deal with that kind of pressure, except Plushy in 2010. Personally, I think the age was more of a contribution to Plushy's decline then pressure, but still!
    I see your point but I dont think it would make much difference in his skating. He is just a solid and strong skater, but not special or blessed with an amazing athletic, creative, or artistic talent that would be groundbreaking in anyway.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zokko! View Post
    Vancouver 2010 Men's event will go down in history as one of the most devastating competitions ever.

    I think it's a drama and a real shame that so many great, gifted, talented guys simply didn't get their stuff together ... and let such a klutz walk away with the Gold medal ...
    ITA! To this day I haven't rewatched that competition nor have I rewatched the 2002 ladies Olympics since it first aired.

  14. #74
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    Evan Lysacek is not a klutz. If someone is to say he is, that makes me wonder if we're watching the same skater. There was nothing klutzy about his 2010 Olympic performances, even though they lacked quads. There was also nothing klutzy at all about his 2009 Worlds FS, either. I'm honestly confused as to how someone could justify calling him a klutz. He's not perfect, but COME ON.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    Evan Lysacek is not a klutz. If someone is to say he is, that makes me wonder if we're watching the same skater. There was nothing klutzy about his 2010 Olympic performances, even though they lacked quads. There was also nothing klutzy at all about his 2009 Worlds FS, either. I'm honestly confused as to how someone could justify calling him a klutz. He's not perfect, but COME ON.
    Sour grapes tend to skew one's perspective.

    I mean if they said he was wooden or robotic or methodological, then I can agree. But a klutz? He wasn't the one shaky and unsure on every jump and having trouble having coherent choreography.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  16. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by DickButtonFan View Post
    lol I remember Scott saying after Yag's LP, "If he's second, he still wins the gold, if he's third, then he's third" (or something like that lolllllllllll) Wonder if he was really watching?
    Does anyone know if Scott ever took back his comments later on? I mean, that has to be the stupidest commentary I ever heard out of him.

    (And for the record, I enjoy much of Scott's commentary.)

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    ITA! To this day I haven't rewatched that competition .
    sadly, I have to agree with you on this one, I haven't re-watched neither Plushenko or Lysacek even once....zzzzzzz
    but Dai I have re-watched and re-watched, same with Stephane, Schulteiss and lots of others!! so, lets look at the bright side!

    (our sport has turned really strange when poor Evan is the olympic champion, he did nothing wrong, he can't help he's the kind of skater he is and he made the most out of it.... if Plush had won, it would have been even worse, I felt like he was panicking his choreo and jumps as he was desperate to win, and his programs ware never great in the first place imo.
    but I also understand that when Dai sat down on his quad, he gave it away...though to me, it was overall the best long program, fall or not! to me, it's about the total package, and cop is not able to reflect that in the pcs! how Evan and Plush can score so high on the psc is beyond me!)

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zokko! View Post
    Yes, those!!! were the days, when Men's competition was "the event", when Olympic Champions actually used to deliver Olympic Champion performances to remember ...
    True.

  19. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    But a klutz? He wasn't the one shaky and unsure on every jump and having trouble having coherent choreography.
    I can (almost) see the "klutz" thing but I'd have worded it differently. Lysacek's jump positions are UGLY. The way he folds himself into the air just looks weird. I just can't get behind his jump positions. They just look so odd. And don't say it's his height because Ilia Kulik is 5'11" and has the most beautiful jump technique around.


    Oh, and by the way - he wasn't shaky and unsure on "every" jump. The only one he really shook on was the 3Lz-3T combination - I STILL, to this day, do not know how he landed the 3Lz. But land it he did, he didn't fall, and at least his choreography had passion, and didn't limp around like a cold fish.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    I can (almost) see the "klutz" thing but I'd have worded it differently. Lysacek's jump positions are UGLY.
    I think only Evan's 3A is unattractive. The lutz, flip, loop, and toe look fine. The sal maybe doesn't have the height of some of the others, but he's usually clean on it.


    And don't say it's his height because Ilia Kulik is 5'11" and has the most beautiful jump technique around.
    Is Kulik really 5'11"? He doesn't look that much taller than Katia standing next to her. Even if he is that height, Kulik does not have the long limbs and wiry body frame that Evan has; He's more compact and hence his air positions are different than Evan's.

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