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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    Maybe there's more to being MEN than powerful jumps? What an insult to those men who define themselves differently and want to be more than just that.
    But they were so much more than that. Have you seen any Yagudin programs after he went to Tarasova?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macassar88 View Post
    But they were so much more than that. Have you seen any Yagudin programs after he went to Tarasova?
    That's exactly what I meant. He had that masculine style of skating, his quads were beautiful and at the same time, he was such an artist.

    And besides, I didn't say they were all about jumps. Jeez, here we go again. If they want to be "more than just that", that's great. I just don't get why they become sth else instead of that. Yagudin and some others from that period showed it was possible to combine jumps with emotion and artistry.

    Besides, it's not only that Lysacek didn't have any quads. If he had been an artistry and emotion master, I would have welcomed his gold over Plush's total lack of choreography. The problem is, he was neither a jumper, nor an artist. This is really not the kind of Olympic champ I wanna see after seing Yags - or even after seing Lambiel win silver in 2006.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by mia joy View Post
    Those were the times men skating was about MEN. Challenging each other. Powerful jumpers. And some great artists too.
    Absolutely! And not only challenging each other, but challenging THEMSELVES.

    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    It's not fair to compare Evan Lysacek's performance in 2010 with Yagudin's in 2002 and say figure skating has suffered a downfall. Yagudin is one of the best male skaters EVER. I don't see Lysacek's performance as inferior to Kulik's in 1998, Urmanov's in 1994, or Petrenko's in 1992. Re: Plushenko's 2006 performance, sure it had more quads than Evan's, but there wasn't much emotion behind it. Maybe Evan isn't the best Olympic champion EVER, but that doesn't mean that figure skating's gone downhill or he didn't deserve the gold medal.
    This bugs me. Kulik, Yagudin and Plushenko all took big risks to win their golds. (Okay, in Plushenko's case it was always a little on the cut-and-dried side, but he still brought his A-game). Lysacek very obviously did not take risks. He was going to skate an absolutely safe program. He was never going to challenge himself with it. And you cannot call Plushenko's OGM-winning LP "emotionless" if you call Lysacek's "emotional", because Lysacek had all the emotion of a teaspoon.

    Or, to put it another way, if you look at say, Plushenko's Skate America LP from 1997...it's about the same level of technical. With the added difficulty that Plushenko was fourteen-about-to-turn-fifteen.


    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    Maybe there's more to being MEN than powerful jumps? What an insult to those men who define themselves differently and want to be more than just that.
    But the jumps are neccessary. And if you are going to compete at the highest level, why not challenge yourself?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fandango View Post
    But that was "then" - and what do we have now? The slide rule generation. Lysacek the reigning "Olympic Champion", Chan almost surely the next World Champion. A lot of hesitant, boring 9-to-5-skaters and ardent point-collectors. Not enough real character's any more, and only a few rays of light in sight. Oh well, I cannot even blame them. It's the system. But the fun seems over (to me).
    Yes, this. All this generation of skaters seems to really care about is "collecting the points", and all the programs are beginning to look the same. I mean, look at last season and this season. Last season, men weren't really doing quads, because they didn't "score enough". Chan even proclaimed loudly all season that you didn't need a quad. What then is the point if you're not challenging yourself? This season, the score increased, and suddenly everyone was doing quads because of the scores.


    I don't skate to collect points, I don't skate to earn badges or pass tests or earn approval (although I certainly pass my tests and collect my badges). I skate for the thrill of doing something challenging, learning something new. I almost LIKE it when I can't do something, because it means I have to push myself. I think a lot of this generation of skaters is forgetting why they skate in the first place.

  4. #24
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    Why this is suddenly became Lysacek defence thread? LOL
    And as the original poster pointed out 2002 had far more than Yagudin.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post

    I don't skate to collect points, I don't skate to earn badges or pass tests or earn approval (although I certainly pass my tests and collect my badges). I skate for the thrill of doing something challenging, learning something new. I almost LIKE it when I can't do something, because it means I have to push myself. I think a lot of this generation of skaters is forgetting why they skate in the first place.
    So just because you skate for a particular reason, you somehow are attributing your desires in your own skating to not one or two but an entire generation of skaters and claiming they forget why they skated in the first place? Really?
    Last edited by antmanb; 04-14-2011 at 03:03 PM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by millipied View Post
    Why this is suddenly became Lysacek defence thread? LOL
    And as the original poster pointed out 2002 had far more than Yagudin.
    Thanks 2002 had mostly everything!! So much quality in every aspect, and I felt that so many of the men were giving me a real experience, even though they weren't fighting for the medals, or had the complete package. Murvanidzes basic were horrid, but his spins were beautiful, and his charisma and program were so totally one-of-a-kind.

    Zoltan Toth skated a very romantic and tender program to tinkly piano music...and out of the blue came the quad! wow!

    we also still had some of the "old-school" guys; Rylov, Dmitrenko, Eldredge, Skorniakov...you almost felt they were from another era, and I miss them now! (Vlaschenko should have been there too, that would've been fab!)

    On Yagudin and Abt, I can go on gushing forever***

    Now, Daisuke is carrying their legacy

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    This bugs me. Kulik, Yagudin and Plushenko all took big risks to win their golds. (Okay, in Plushenko's case it was always a little on the cut-and-dried side, but he still brought his A-game). Lysacek very obviously did not take risks. He was going to skate an absolutely safe program. He was never going to challenge himself with it.
    I disagree. Quads are not the only kind of risks or challenges to oneself. Full upper body movement in step sequences (including, yes, arm thrashing) is a risk. Difficult spin positions that challenge balance are a risk. Deep edges are a risk. Difficult entries or exits from jumps and spins are a risk. Including variety steps, turns, and highlight moves between elements rather than just simple turns, crossovers, gliding on two feet, and other simple skating is a risk. Skating with attack and energy instead of staying in one's comfort zone is a risk.

    Skating a program full of all of the above is much more risky than skating a simple program with the same jump content. How much some of the above makes up for including one quad vs. leaving it out (assuming one is capable of attempting one) is up for debate. But I think it's fair to say that in 2010 Plushenko left out a lot more of that stuff than he had in 2002, even accounting for the change of rules and judging system.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by mia joy View Post
    I know, right? I cannot believe we keep debating if choreo and transitions are more important than quads...

    Those were the times men skating was about MEN. Challenging each other. Powerful jumpers. And some great artists too.
    Siiiigh.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I disagree. Quads are not the only kind of risks or challenges to oneself. Full upper body movement in step sequences (including, yes, arm thrashing) is a risk. Difficult spin positions that challenge balance are a risk. Deep edges are a risk. Difficult entries or exits from jumps and spins are a risk. Including variety steps, turns, and highlight moves between elements rather than just simple turns, crossovers, gliding on two feet, and other simple skating is a risk. Skating with attack and energy instead of staying in one's comfort zone is a risk.
    Probably we should make a poll to see how skaters injured themselves, training jumps, step sequences, spins, etc. It would be interesting.

  10. #30

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    I forgot how great Yagudin's "Winter" is.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by ciocio View Post
    Probably we should make a poll to see how skaters injured themselves, training jumps, step sequences, spins, etc. It would be interesting.
    Yes, it would. Assuming people can pinpoint the cause of their injuries, which isn't always possible.

    Would this be a poll for elite skaters -- how would we get them to respond? Or FSU posters, many of whom skate or used to skate at low, middle, or high levels, but the elite skaters who read or post here will mostly not self-identify.

  12. #32
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    Ahhh, that is one of my favorite competitions ever! The memory that immediately pops to my mind is Honda's sheer exuberance while he motors through his step sequences in Don Quixote.

  13. #33

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    I saw the mens competition too (SP&LP) live in Salt Lake city. It was awesome. I dare say it was the best mens Olympic competition, because there were so many great performances.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    I saw the mens competition too (SP&LP) live in Salt Lake city. It was awesome. I dare say it was the best mens Olympic competition, because there were so many great performances.
    Not only many great performances, but many different types of great performances. Even watching it on TV, it seemed magical. Tim Goebel was not exactly artistic (IMO), but he had the best skate of his life (at least to that point) and it showed!

    I don't think it fair to compare events; too much has changed. Lysacek deserves kudos (again IMO) because he worked on being the best he could be; it isn't his fault that he isn't Yagudin.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by mia joy View Post
    That's exactly what I meant. He had that masculine style of skating, his quads were beautiful and at the same time, he was such an artist.

    And besides, I didn't say they were all about jumps. Jeez, here we go again. If they want to be "more than just that", that's great. I just don't get why they become sth else instead of that. Yagudin and some others from that period showed it was possible to combine jumps with emotion and artistry.

    Besides, it's not only that Lysacek didn't have any quads. If he had been an artistry and emotion master, I would have welcomed his gold over Plush's total lack of choreography. The problem is, he was neither a jumper, nor an artist. This is really not the kind of Olympic champ I wanna see after seing Yags - or even after seing Lambiel win silver in 2006.
    I agree with you completely. I don't see why everyone liked Lysacek's Scheherazade so much.
    And the other problem is that you have to decide whether Figure Skating should be judged from an Olympic perspective. Because then the jumps and other elements should count for all of it since they are the athletic elements of figure skating. But I think it's safe to say we all miss Yagudin.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I forgot how great Yagudin's "Winter" is.
    My favorite program of his was actually his Circus program from 1998-1999, but I love his straight line steps from Winter.
    Such a pity he couldn't continue on.

  17. #37

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    Yagudin was to me the greatest men's skater, ever. For so many reasons, but that's all personal to me. I'm not talking absolute here, JMO.

    However-about this whole "not taking risks" subject: if you go back and watch a number of the videos of Yagudin's MITIM Olympic performance, you can hear, I think Scott Hamilton, talking about how "tentative" he is skating-not his usual "all out" style. He was making sure he made no mistakes.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holley Calmes View Post
    However-about this whole "not taking risks" subject: if you go back and watch a number of the videos of Yagudin's MITIM Olympic performance, you can hear, I think Scott Hamilton, talking about how "tentative" he is skating-not his usual "all out" style. He was making sure he made no mistakes.
    Well, Hamilton "stated" a lot of things throughout the entire skating competitions in SLC ...

  19. #39

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    You don't think Yagudin skated more carefully in the Olympic LP? I'm no big fan of Scott Hamilton, but it made sense to me.

  20. #40
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    Scott didn't know the hell he was talking about that night. He made it seem like Yagudin left the door open for Plushenko with his performance in the LP.

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