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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by senorita View Post
    it was a general objection that a judge referred to a competing skater before a competition to point out the pcs marking however this skater is called, Plushenko, Takahashi or Lysacek it is the same for me. I didnt comment the mail he sent but that he used an active skater to make his point.
    I totally agree with you. He shouldn't have specifically mentioned Plushenko just before the Olympics - it very much looked like he was trying to influence the judges. Whether his point was correct or not is irrelevant, he should not be telling judges how to mark a skater a couple of weeks before that skater competes. Simple as that.

    And the fact that Plushenko 'admitted' his lack of transitions is irrelevant too. He's not the first skater to admit to a weakness, and it doesn't mean that a high-profile judge can then send those comments to other judges and say "see, this is how you should mark this person". Michelle Kwan admitted after her 2004 (or 2005?) LP that she had to work on the transitions etc, does that mean it's ok for a high profile Russian or Japanese judge to send emails round saying "look, Michelle herself admits it, you should mark her lower"?

  2. #202

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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    I think many Plushenko fans have this conception that if Plushenko goes out, lands a quad and skates relatively cleanly, he would receive PCS in the 8s and 9s and win. In the past, results probably have proven this true but really, why should that be the case?
    Bull. I have never believed that and I've never met a Plushy fan who has. I have always known - ALWAYS, and I'm one of those "new" fans that people scorn so roundly - that the second mark is seperate to the first. His PCS comes from his presentation, his TES from his jumps, spins and steps. That's my simple interpretation. He did a lack in transitions at Vancouver. Did he deserve to spend all season getting marked high and then get whacked in the metaphorical balls at the Olympics? No, of course not. No-one deserves that. Plushenko went to CoR and Euros and no-one said a thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparks View Post
    I agree with Shine.
    I call BS on all the claims that it was the judges fault for not giving Plushenko enough feedback.
    Plushy and Mishin knew the rules. They knew transitions count for something. They also KNEW that there are huge rewards for executing jumps in the second half of the program.
    Plushy didn't maximize his points. Too bad. The end.
    They made a program that he could skate. Perhaps he made a judgement error in only really starting the comeback partway through 2009. I definitely don't think he had reached peak fitness by Vancouver; instead he was worryingly thin and quite drawn. He's looking much healthier now. But the fact is, after three years off, are you expecting that he will put together a program of composition like Lysacek's or Chan's? Mishin and Advish decided that the risk of front-loading was less than the risk of back-loading, watching Plushenko run out of steam, and him potentially muff his last couple of jumps. They could have made the most CoP-whoreish program under the sun, it wouldn't have mattered a damn if he couldn't skate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by senorita View Post
    ^Yes he did, in the beginning of season after the test skate, after Rostel and after Euros, Piseev had a video saying about all this and the video was in Yubileney, after Euros they even published some stuff like the feedback about level two steps he got. In my opinion it was too late to change something or introduce something drastically, Plushenko isnt superman, he skated what he could, he changed his levels at least by Vancouver.
    Yes. I think a lot of people are forgetting he's not 19 anymore. When he was 19, it was so much easier for him to change the program mid-season. Remember "Story of an Artist"? No, and hardly anyone does, because after the judge feedback from the GPF in the 2001-2002 season, he ditched it and did Carmen for the Olympics instead. That was quite the impressive turnaround. But Plushenko is not 19 anymore, and these things take time. There was maybe three weeks, a month, if that, between Euros and the Olympics. It was too late to change anything major even if they'd wanted to.

    Quote Originally Posted by icenut84 View Post
    I totally agree with you. He shouldn't have specifically mentioned Plushenko just before the Olympics - it very much looked like he was trying to influence the judges. Whether his point was correct or not is irrelevant, he should not be telling judges how to mark a skater a couple of weeks before that skater competes. Simple as that.

    And the fact that Plushenko 'admitted' his lack of transitions is irrelevant too. He's not the first skater to admit to a weakness, and it doesn't mean that a high-profile judge can then send those comments to other judges and say "see, this is how you should mark this person". Michelle Kwan admitted after her 2004 (or 2005?) LP that she had to work on the transitions etc, does that mean it's ok for a high profile Russian or Japanese judge to send emails round saying "look, Michelle herself admits it, you should mark her lower"?

    Thankyou. I think what made it look even worse was the fact that Inman was an American judge, the Olympics were in North America, and...I'm sorry Americans, but the major vibe I get is that some people over there just aren't over the Cold War.

  3. #203

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    They made a program that he could skate. Perhaps he made a judgement error in only really starting the comeback partway through 2009. I definitely don't think he had reached peak fitness by Vancouver; instead he was worryingly thin and quite drawn. He's looking much healthier now. But the fact is, after three years off, are you expecting that he will put together a program of composition like Lysacek's or Chan's? Mishin and Advish decided that the risk of front-loading was less than the risk of back-loading, watching Plushenko run out of steam, and him potentially muff his last couple of jumps.
    Yes, if he wanted to win GOLD.
    How do you know what Mishin and Advish were thinking?
    Did he deserve to spend all season getting marked high and then get whacked in the metaphorical balls at the Olympics?
    All season? As you said, it was only two competitions...both without "full fields".
    He wasn't whacked. He placed second after 2 rounds. The end.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by icenut84 View Post
    I totally agree with you. He shouldn't have specifically mentioned Plushenko just before the Olympics - it very much looked like he was trying to influence the judges. Whether his point was correct or not is irrelevant, he should not be telling judges how to mark a skater a couple of weeks before that skater competes. Simple as that.

    And the fact that Plushenko 'admitted' his lack of transitions is irrelevant too. He's not the first skater to admit to a weakness, and it doesn't mean that a high-profile judge can then send those comments to other judges and say "see, this is how you should mark this person". Michelle Kwan admitted after her 2004 (or 2005?) LP that she had to work on the transitions etc, does that mean it's ok for a high profile Russian or Japanese judge to send emails round saying "look, Michelle herself admits it, you should mark her lower"?
    Agreed. Also, if you listen to a skater when he/she points out his/her own flaws, why not also the good?
    Lets say that skater A says that he has the best transitions, presentation, jumps, spins, etc in the world. Does that mean that he should get 10s across the board in his PCs?

  5. #205
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    But when Plushenko openly admitted that he didn't have transitions, it forced judges to re-evaluate his PCS. All season long (and in 2006 too), he was getting PCS for things he didn't do or skills he didn't show. Inman was just pointing that out and reminding judges to mark accordingly. If Lysacek didn't get credit for a quad he didn't do, why should Plushenko get credit for transitions or choreography that he didn't have?

    In any event, Plushenko's PCS at Vancouver were still way too high compared to the rest of the top six. Still, he would have won if he had done a 3flip instead of a 2axel or not wonked on about half of the jumps or done a 3 jump combo etc. The judges really did all they could do to prop him up PCS-wise. All he had to do was to land all his planned jumps strongly but he didn't. It's no one's fault but his own that he didn't win.

    Didn't Plushenko and the fans also yell foul when Sandhu beat him at one GPF when Plushenko breached the COP rule at the time and also skated through a jumping pass? Again - the rules were there for everyone. Fair is fair.

  6. #206

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    But when Plushenko openly admitted that he didn't have transitions, it forced judges to re-evaluate his PCS. All season long (and in 2006 too), he was getting PCS for things he didn't do or skills he didn't show. Inman was just pointing that out and reminding judges to mark accordingly. If Lysacek didn't get credit for a quad he didn't do, why should Plushenko get credit for transitions or choreography that he didn't have?
    Are you saying the judges are blind, and that they didn't notice until Plushenko pointed it out? What a load of bull. Plushenko's admission didn't "force" the judges to re-evaluate anything.

  7. #207

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    It did, though, because high marks for transitions in light of Plushenko's comments would have revealed the PCS side of the precious new system as a complete farce.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    I also doubt Inman's email has to do anything with this ! If Inman had such a big influence and really wanted to affect Plushenko's marks, he wouldn't have needed to send an email to everyone !
    When you really have influence, you act behind the scene !
    The real problem is not that the e-mail was sent to everyone but that the e-mail was leaked to the media (how?) which has the power to influence anything (Salle and Pelletier gold medal?).
    So we should stop pretending it was a little, harmless message. Mr.Inman is not that powerful but he used media and timing to make sure that the e-mail had the deisred effect. And it did .
    PML if the Russians use the same strategy and the Russian press, two weeks before Sochi , make a big fuss about how Chan gets much too high marks for interpretation

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    And finally, was his mark at he Oly really that much lower than what he had been receiving all season?
    I was wondering about that too.

    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._SP_Scores.pdf
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FS_Scores.pdf
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/ec..._SP_Scores.pdf
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/ec..._FS_Scores.pdf
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/ow..._SP_Scores.pdf
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/ow..._FS_Scores.pdf

    Plushenko's Transitions Scores by Judge (with Score of Panel in bold)

    Rostelecom Cup SP
    7.25 7.00 6.25 8.00 6.75 7.25 7.25 7.25 6.50 7.10

    Rostelecom Cup FS
    7.50 6.25 8.50 7.00 7.00 6.00 7.75 7.75 6.75 6.95

    Europeans SP
    7.50 7.00 7.50 7.50 7.25 6.75 8.25 8.25 7.50 7.55

    Europeans FS
    7.50 7.00 8.50 8.00 7.25 7.50 7.25 7.50 8.00 7.65

    Olympics SP
    7.50 7.50 5.00 8.00 7.50 7.75 5.00 6.00 8.75 6.80

    Olympics FS
    8.75 6.00 8.00 8.75 6.00 6.50 7.25 7.25 8.50 7.25

    His score for Transitions in the Free Skate at the Rostelecom Cup was actually lower than at the Olympics, and his score for Transitions in the Short Program at the Rostelecom Cup was closer to what he received at the Olympics than to what he received at Europeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by senorita View Post
    I said you score a skater through out the season with specific marks and dont give him any feedback that he has no transitions and suddently there is a mail that invites judges to mark what they see, just before Olympics. I m pretty sure their job was to mark what they see in the competitions before Vancouver as well. Whatever Plushenko thinks of his transitions, it is not the athlete's job to mark them and it is not judges job to listen to a skater's opinion. Put him 5 since the begining, to make him change to 7 by Olympics.
    As the above marks indicate, he did get feedback at the Rostelecom Cup. Apparently, he chose to ignore it.
    Last edited by Vagabond; 04-27-2011 at 08:28 AM.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    Are you saying the judges are blind, and that they didn't notice until Plushenko pointed it out? What a load of bull. Plushenko's admission didn't "force" the judges to re-evaluate anything.
    Thanks to Vagabond's compilation, you can see some judges were clearly blind or decided to be blind in giving Plushenko transition marks in the high 8s at the Olympics despite the Inman incident and Plushenko's own little admission. I am guessing the same judges gave Patrick Chan 12s.

    While his overall TR score at the Olympics was in line with the score he was getting all season, the variance was much bigger. He continued to get a few 6s but the high 7s and 8s have become mid and high 8s by the Olympics. Whether Inman's email hurt him or warned his Federation instead is very clear.

  11. #211

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    Quote Originally Posted by theshrew View Post
    So we should stop pretending it was a little, harmless message. Mr.Inman is not that powerful but he used media and timing to make sure that the e-mail had the deisred effect. And it did .
    Inman used the media? It appears to be the French federation who made a media issue out of what would otherwise just have been a "we should pay more attention to transitions" e-mail within the judging community.

    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=71391

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Thanks to Vagabond's compilation, you can see some judges were clearly blind or decided to be blind in giving Plushenko transition marks in the high 8s at the Olympics despite the Inman incident and Plushenko's own little admission. I am guessing the same judges gave Patrick Chan 12s.
    Using those 8.75's as a baseline, 12's for Chan's Transitions would be sensible, cautious, conservative marks.

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