How Much is Too Much?

[Aceon6]

I like the APA definitions. Alcohol abuse is repeated use despite recurrent adverse consequences, while alcohol dependence is abuse combined with tolerance, withdrawal, and an uncontrollable drive to drink.

[milanessa]

Kind of ironic to hear all this. A few years ago a long time poster started a thread where she said she was in recovery and working her way through a 12 step program. She was on whatever step it is that says to make amends and she posted to apologize to anyone she may have offended and gave a heartfelt, honest account of what she was going through. As far as I remember no one here knew (before that thread) she suffered from alcoholism and she was a well regarded board member. The responses to her post shocked me, no compassion at all. She's never been back.

[genevieve]

wow, I have no memory of that thread at all

[Cupid]

wow, I have no memory of that thread at all

Maybe someone can refresh our memories, I don't remember that either. Too much wine!!

[Rex]

Maybe someone can refresh our memories, I don't remember that either. Too much wine!!

Cupid, really......

[BigB08822]

I don't recall that either and I find it shocking no one would have any kind of compassion much less be down right rude. Maybe you are just remembering the few bad posts? I am hoping...

[Jenny]

Is this what milanessa is referring to?

From April 2005:
http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=25022

Followed in that September by:
http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=31241

I don't remember the poster, but everyone was quite supportive in those thread and she stuck around for several more years.

[BigB08822]

I've always wondered what is the best thing for alcoholics to do that are atheist? I find the 12 step program to rely heavily on believing in some kind of God. I don't...so what would be best for someone like me?

[milanessa]

Is this what milanessa is referring to?

From April 2005:
http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=25022

Followed in that September by:
http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=31241

I don't remember the poster, but everyone was quite supportive in those thread and she stuck around for several more years.

No, it wasn't jacandita. You're right though that she got a lot of support in that thread.

I did try and search for the poster I'm talking about but couldn't find anything - she just disappeared.

I never said anyone was rude, Brian, just less than compassionate.

[Southpaw]

I've always wondered what is the best thing for alcoholics to do that are atheist? I find the 12 step program to rely heavily on believing in some kind of God. I don't...so what would be best for someone like me?

They have 12 Step programs for atheists.

[Prancer]

No, it wasn't jacandita. You're right though that she got a lot of support in that thread.

I did try and search for the poster I'm talking about but couldn't find anything - she just disappeared.

I never said anyone was rude, Brian, just less than compassionate.

Was that by any chance a thread about something else--I think a woman who fell in front of a train because she was drunk or something like that? And the poster in question posted later in the thread?

[Bonita]

I have wondered about the whole AA/not believing in God thing myself. I do understand a little more about it since reading Dave Mustaine's (Megadeth) autobiography. Now that was a dude with serious issues all the way around.

I walk by a church every Tuesday when AA is getting out, and it seems to me they have exchanged booze for cigs and coffee. I don't get it because to me if you're trying to quit/cut back on booze, the last thing you would need were two stimulants after 8:00 p.m.!

[Southpaw]

I walk by a church every Tuesday when AA is getting out, and it seems to me they have exchanged booze for cigs and coffee. I don't get it because to me if you're trying to quit/cut back on booze, the last thing you would need were two stimulants after 8:00 p.m.!

The cigarettes and coffee were likely in the picture before AA came along so 1 habit out of 3 kicked to the curb ain't so bad.

[milanessa]

Was that by any chance a thread about something else--I think a woman who fell in front of a train because she was drunk or something like that? And the poster in question posted later in the thread?

I can't say it wasn't but that's not the way I remember it. I'm pretty sure she started a thread.

[PRlady]

I have wondered about the whole AA/not believing in God thing myself. I do understand a little more about it since reading Dave Mustaine's (Megadeth) autobiography. Now that was a dude with serious issues all the way around.

I'm blanking on where I read or saw this (middle-aged memory loss not related to drinking) but there is serious data that AA doesn't work very well. It's not just the "putting yourself in the hands of a higher power," although that's problematic for a lot of people. But the longitudinal studies show that cognitive therapy, i.e. helping people think differently about themselves and how to solve the problem, is much more useful.

And I agree that one person's alcohol dependence is another's social drinking. My ex-husband had to have a double-martini every single night except when he was sick. If we were traveling, we couldn't just eat at a little hole in the wall with good food because it wouldn't have a full bar. His personality changed considerably every night after the drink was gone. That to me is an alcohol problem, others might disagree.

[Aceon6]

His personality changed considerably every night after the drink was gone. That to me is an alcohol problem, others might disagree.

I agree. To my way of thinking, any repetitive drinking that impacts personality, relationships, or ability to function in the real world is an alcohol problem. My bff from my early working days had a similar pattern, and suffered the consequences.

[numbers123]

I've always wondered what is the best thing for alcoholics to do that are atheist? I find the 12 step program to rely heavily on believing in some kind of God. I don't...so what would be best for someone like me?

from what I know about AA, you accept that there is a power greater than you. My brother has been a recovering alcoholic for 30+ years. He does not believe in a Christian God, he makes his peace with being one with the universe. Not really a Buddist belief either. In some aspects it is his mentor the person he calls when the urge hits. Just that the pull of alcohol is so great that he depends on the good will of others to help him stay sober. I recently sent him birthday wishes - on the date he became sober about 5 hours before the day. And his response was he hadn't made it to the birthday yet, it is a minute by minute struggle. Even after 30+ years.

I know that there are many women who drink that much described in the article. I can not imagine drinking that much on a daily basis.I may have 1 or 2 glasses of wine in a 14 day time span, occasionally more. We do go to wineries during the spring, summer, fall - it is more the experience of slowing down and spending time together than the actual alcohol. But having alcoholics in my family, I know that they could drink a lot with seemingly no effects. I agree with PRLady and Aceon6 - it is not only how it affects you but affects those in your life.

[sk8er1964]

If you want to try to get a picture of addiction, the struggle to overcome it (with or without God), and the angst of those who live with it themselves or with a loved one, go to this site.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/

There's a lot of human suffering there, and a lot of human triumphs. Alcohol addiction is horrible -- well, any addiction is horrible. Having kicked cigarettes (that was physically awful) and caffeine, I can sympathize. I go there to try to understand certain people in my life.

There's a huge misconception about addicts - and that is that they could kick the habit except that they are lazy or evil blah blah. For most it is a physical problem - like being bi-polar or asthmatic - and it is so damn hard to beat. They are not addicts because they are weak or indifferent. Most deep down hate their addiction but are truly powerless over it. Until they find something to help them, whether that something is God or logic or a health scare they continue on in their own private Hell.

[/too personal stuff]

[Bonita]

Sk8er1964, well said, all of it. My dad quit smoking almost 30 years ago and still lovingly smells the air when someone is smoking and craves one. He also tried pot and some other bad drugs in Korea during the war, drank socially over the years (an occasional beer or mixed drink) and said that cigs were his worst enemy and that giving them up was absolutely horrific. I was 14 at the time he quit smoking, and then he took up eating (gained 60 pounds) and had to lose the pounds from that after a heart attack ten years later. Everyone has their demons, we should not judge.

[Prancer]

I can't say it wasn't but that's not the way I remember it. I'm pretty sure she started a thread.

That may be. I do remember that someone in the train thread started talking about her experiences as a recovering alcoholic and people weren't very nice; a couple of people were quite cruel.

I'm blanking on where I read or saw this (middle-aged memory loss not related to drinking) but there is serious data that AA doesn't work very well.

AA is very, very protective of its stats and makes it hard for researchers to get information on them, but I believe the five-year success rate is about two percent.