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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aceon6 View Post
    FWIW, Granny and I were talking about the 50s and early 60s. I think a lot of it was the WWII influence. Nearly every adult had gone through similar experiences from the Depression through the end of the 40s, so it makes sense to me that they would be doing similar things. There are jokes about the Eisenhower years being the cookie-cutter years.

    I agree, by the 70s, things were very different, even in my little corner.
    Exactly. One poster made the point that not every part of even our little corner was the same for all children, and that is true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aceon6 View Post
    FWIW, Granny and I were talking about the 50s and early 60s. I think a lot of it was the WWII influence. Nearly every adult had gone through similar experiences from the Depression through the end of the 40, so it makes sense to me that they would be doing similar things.
    I was a late life baby. My parents went through the Depression and WWII. It still didn't make them like all the other parents, and they certainly didn't parent anything like my husband's parents, who also went through the Depression and WWII. Or like my friends' older parents, either.

    But again, it's quite possible that it's just me.

    I must say, however, that if the children of the 50s were so well-behaved, where did all those hippies and draft dodgers come from in the 1960s?

    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    Which makes her entire point, well pointless. She seems to be pre-occupied with the use of pepper spray which is of course, an outcome.
    I would call that a method, myself, rather than an outcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    The police officers in this case managed the crisis effectively with minimal harm to the child and to themselves.
    Are there other methods that could have been used? Is this considered the proper standard of care when dealing with a dangerous juvenile?

    I have no idea. To me, it's preferable to tackling him (which I said earlier in this thread), but whether that it actually the case, I don't know. I'm not in law enforcement and don't know what standards or methods are considered most effective in such situations.

    Regardless, I think that having police officers with training in child crisis management would be preferable in dealing with situations involving children in crisis. I don't think any reasonable person would disagree with that. That's what she is asking for; her motivation for asking does not negate the value (or lack) of her request. Whether such a thing is feasible or not, I don't know.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    I would call that a method, myself, rather than an outcome.
    The child having been pepper sprayed is an outcome as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post

    Are there other methods that could have been used? Is this considered the proper standard of care when dealing with a dangerous juvenile?
    You are an intelligent person. I am sure you could speculate on some options and their feasibility and safety.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    I have no idea. To me, it's preferable to tackling him (which I said earlier in this thread), but whether that it actually the case, I don't know. I'm not in law enforcement and don't know what standards or methods are considered most effective in such situations.
    Again, what other options were there that would have been better? It is also assumed that that was the first thing they tried. Perhaps they tried other, less invasive methods and failed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Regardless, I think that having police officers with training in child crisis management would be preferable in dealing with situations involving children in crisis. I don't think any reasonable person would disagree with that. That's what she is asking for; her motivation for asking does not negate the value (or lack) of her request. Whether such a thing is feasible or not, I don't know.
    Has there been any research that actually supports any of this? Sometimes things that seem like common sense to most don't hold up to scrutiny.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  4. #104
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    International Association of Chiefs of Police Summit of 2009 Page 2 indicates that the association believes responding to children is different, than responding to adults
    Law enforcement interventions can have very different impacts on children and youth with metal, emotional, or behavioral issues in comparison to those experienced by adults with mental illness
    If this group believes that there are interventions that are different for children vs. adults, is it unreasonable for the mother to ask for education? I don't agree with the way she has gone about it, but it does seem reasonable to ask for it. Maybe pepper spray was appropriate, maybe not. But is it the national accepted standard for these cases? I don't know. And without making training available and then evaluating the outcomes we won't know. There has to be a starting point in order to evaluate if a training program makes a difference.
    ETAThe summit report was to include information
    How school resource officers can be involved in supporting children and youth with mental, emotional, or behavioral issues.
    The unique characteristics of children and youth with mental, emotional, or behavioral issues that should be taken into account in developing effective prevention and crisis intervention approaches that will minimize trauma and stigma for these children and their families
    Last edited by numbers123; 04-10-2011 at 09:21 PM.

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    At what point do we teach children to take responsibility for their own actions rather than blame parents, teachers, cops, society... one day this child will be grown, and he will be expected to act accordingly. But if he's never taught, who do we blame when he acts out as an adult? Are ADD/ADHD/ODD acceptable excuses then? I'm seriously asking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    You are an intelligent person. I am sure you could speculate on some options and their feasibility and safety.
    I don't find speculation particularly useful when I know little to nothing about a subjest. I don't find the speculation of those likewise informed to be particularly valuable, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    Has there been any research that actually supports any of this? Sometimes things that seem like common sense to most don't hold up to scrutiny.
    Indeed. But at least we seem to agree that this would at least appear--speaking speculatively, of course--to be common sense.

    Is there any research that actually supports pepper spray as the most effective way to take down an armed eight year old? You look for studies that support your position and I'll look for studies that support mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Badams View Post
    At what point do we teach children to take responsibility for their own actions rather than blame parents, teachers, cops, society... one day this child will be grown, and he will be expected to act accordingly. But if he's never taught, who do we blame when he acts out as an adult? Are ADD/ADHD/ODD acceptable excuses then? I'm seriously asking.
    The kid attends a special school for kids with behavioral problems, and he was just pepper sprayed by the cops. Apparently there are people who don't consider his behavior either acceptable or excused. At what point do we say that there ARE lessons being taught here?

    He is eight years old. By definition, he has a lot of learning to do.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    I don't find speculation particularly useful when I know little to nothing about a subjest. I don't find the speculation of those likewise informed to be particularly valuable, either.
    Then you find most of the content of this board rather useless. But if you'd like an expert opinion, you may want to read Kasey's post upthread--someone who provided psychiatric health care to children. Post #41 on this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Indeed. But at least we seem to agree that this would at least appear--speaking speculatively, of course--to be common sense.

    Is there any research that actually supports pepper spray as the most effective way to take down an armed eight year old? You look for studies that support your position and I'll look for studies that support mine.
    I was under the impression that you found the use of pepper spray appropriate. Was I wrong? If I am, what would be the alternatives? Yes, I am inviting you to speculate. It can't be that novel of an experience.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    Then you find most of the content of this board rather useless. But if you'd like an expert opinion, you may want to read Kasey's post upthread--someone who provided psychiatric health care to children. Post #41 on this thread.
    May I ask what part of Kasey's post contradicted anything that I have said? Perhaps you would like to read the post I made preceding that one?

    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    I was under the impression that you found the use of pepper spray appropriate. Was I wrong? If I am, what would be the alternatives? Yes, I am inviting you to speculate. It can't be that novel of an experience.
    I said--more than once--that I thought the use of pepper spray was a better alternative than tackling the child. I have no standing to say whether it was appropriate or not.

    I do not know what other alternatives are available to the police, nor do I know the details of the situation the police actually dealt with. Did he threaten the police with the stick or did he merely have it in his hands--or did he, as he says, drop it immediately? Unlikely, but possible. Was he an immediate physical threat to officers or to someone else, or were other people safely out of the way? How did the police officers approach him and did they try anything else? What is SOP for police officers in situations involving elementary school-aged children threatening violence? What alternative methods might a police officer trained to handle children in crisis have used, if any?

    To me, the most obvious alternative would be the contain him and let him wear himself down; that's what I did with my kids when they had tantrums. And you are going to say "But what if they couldn't/he was a threat/he tried to attack/they didn't have time to hold out/etc., etc" which is exactly why I find speculation based on such little information to be worse than useless. It's an excuse to indulge in assumption.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  9. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    I must say, however, that if the children of the 50s were so well-behaved, where did all those hippies and draft dodgers come from in the 1960s?
    Personally, I wasn't all that well behaved, I just got very good at behaving in public and making sure my parents didn't find out about anything. By the late 60s/early 70s, I was in college and found out about choices.
    AceOn6, the golf loving skating fan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    May I ask what part of Kasey's post contradicted anything that I have said? Perhaps you would like to read the post I made preceding that one?
    I didn't say her post contradicted or confirmed anything you said. I said this is an expert opinion because you said you didn't care for speculation coming from non-experts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    I said--more than once--that I thought the use of pepper spray was a better alternative than tackling the child. I have no standing to say whether it was appropriate or not.
    I agree--it sounded like the better alternative. However, I am not sure what would be another, better way (or what the mother in the case considers a better way).
    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    What alternative methods might a police officer trained to handle children in crisis have used, if any?
    Right, that was my question too. I am curious to find out what other ways, if any are out there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    To me, the most obvious alternative would be the contain him and let him wear himself down; that's what I did with my kids when they had tantrums. And you are going to say "But what if they couldn't/he was a threat/he tried to attack/they didn't have time to hold out/etc., etc" which is exactly why I find speculation based on such little information to be worse than useless. It's an excuse to indulge in assumption.
    Well, if he did drop the weapon, it's one thing. But if he didn't, I am not sure what containing means. Isolate him and keep him alone? If so, for how long? And why would that be a better alternative, if you are saying it's better.

    And again, so much of the content of this board is speculation coming from non-experts and a lot of us here indulge in assumption. A lot. Why is this news?
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    I said--more than once--that I thought the use of pepper spray was a better alternative than tackling the child.
    I don't have medical knowledge about the effects of pepper spray, but I know that in my country every month several adults are hospitalised for severe respiratory problems and burns resulting from pepper gas. It is considered very dangerous for children and possibly fatal in case of asthma.

    I agree with you that it is very difficult for untrained adults to restrain a child having a crisis. However hopefully several trained policemen would be able to take a stick away from an 8-year-old without getting injured or causing him more harm than pepper spray could cause.

  12. #112
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    I find that Prancer is speculating more than IceAlisa is.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    I didn't say her post contradicted or confirmed anything you said. I said this is an expert opinion because you said you didn't care for speculation coming from non-experts.


    I agree--it sounded like the better alternative. However, I am not sure what would be another, better way (or what the mother in the case considers a better way).
    Right, that was my question too. I am curious to find out what other ways, if any are out there.
    Well, if he did drop the weapon, it's one thing. But if he didn't, I am not sure what containing means. Isolate him and keep him alone? If so, for how long? And why would that be a better alternative, if you are saying it's better.

    And again, so much of the content of this board is speculation coming from non-experts and a lot of us here indulge in assumption. A lot. Why is this news?
    I have no idea what you are trying to say anywhere in this post. Kasey's post about being injured while controlling enraged children has no relevance to my refusal to speculate about what should have been done with this child by the police, I just said that I don't know what alternatives are considered best in law enforcement in such situations (and clearly neither do you), and what other posters do or do not do on the board is irrelevant to whether I do it or not.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  14. #114
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    Basically, I've been trying to say for several posts now that

    a) people speculate a lot on this board, in fact, most of the time so I wasn't sure why the concept was so strange to you, and

    b) since you kept repeating how you don't like speculation and opinion of non-experts and complained how it's worse than useless, so I directed your attention to an opinion of an expert or at least someone with experience. Perhaps you would consider it useful and perhaps (but not by any means for certain) the situation she described that required "take downs" was recreated in the current incident.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    Basically, I've been trying to say for several posts now that

    a) people speculate a lot on this board, in fact, most of the time so I wasn't sure why the concept was so strange to you, and
    The concept isn't at all strange to me. What does the fact that "people" speculate on this board have to do with whether I do it or not? Is it there some sort of board speculation requirement I am not aware of?

    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    b) since you kept repeating how you don't like speculation and opinion of non-experts
    Here is what I said:

    I don't find speculation particularly useful when I know little to nothing about a subject. I don't find the speculation of those likewise informed to be particularly valuable, either.
    I said that *I* do not know enough about the issue to speculate on it, and that I find the speculations of people who do not know --which would be PEOPLE LIKE ME--to be less than valuable.

    Are we clear now? Because this is massively tedious and even more pointless than most such conversations.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

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    You are right, this IS tedious. Fine, don't speculate if it's so distasteful to you.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asli View Post
    I don't have medical knowledge about the effects of pepper spray, but I know that in my country every month several adults are hospitalised for severe respiratory problems and burns resulting from pepper gas. It is considered very dangerous for children and possibly fatal in case of asthma.
    I wasn't aware it could be fatal. I do know some people who've been sprayed with it by accident, and unbelievably painful is usually how it's described.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    I wasn't aware it could be fatal.
    So can an accidental or deliberate stabbing with a sharp wooden object.

    Anything can trigger a severe allergic reaction, anaphylaxis or an asthma attack, including pepper spray.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

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    http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/823...-baby-squirrel
    Now this upsets me more than pepper spraying a rowdy kid. I hope he loses his job.
    I guess the hard thing for a lot of people to accept is why God would allow me to go running through their yards, yelling and spinning around.


  20. #120
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    I am not familiar with squirrel behavior but do they usually chase people? If not, perhaps his concern with the squirrel being rabid is justified?
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

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