Police Pepper Spray 8 Yr Old

[Kasey]

I used to work as a nurse in a locked down child/adolescent psych facility (and NO, will NEVER do psych nursing again). Even a 5 year old with behavior issues can cause damage, serious and possibly permanent injury to an adult who isn't careful. When we would have to do a "take down", we would have just as many people for a child as an adolescent usually. While I worked there, I was bitten, scratched, stabbed in the thigh with a pencil, threatened with a knife a kid smuggled back from the kitchen and narrowly avoided being bashed in the head by a 3-hole puncher flung by a pissed off 10 year old. Pepper spray, taser, whatever the hell is required on someone that out of control and threatening receives my blessing. Just because you go into some form of public service work (i.e., police, health care, fire department, paramedic, etc) does not mean you are signing a consent to be a freaking pinata. Personally, I get tired of my "mature" adult patients thinking it is ok to beat the sh!t out of me if they want to; I sure as hell don't want to tolerate it from a rugrat ever again.

[Aceon6]

I used to work as a nurse in a locked down child/adolescent psych facility (and NO, will NEVER do psych nursing again). Even a 5 year old with behavior issues can cause damage, serious and possibly permanent injury to an adult who isn't careful. When we would have to do a "take down", we would have just as many people for a child as an adolescent usually. While I worked there, I was bitten, scratched, stabbed in the thigh with a pencil, threatened with a knife a kid smuggled back from the kitchen and narrowly avoided being bashed in the head by a 3-hole puncher flung by a pissed off 10 year old. Pepper spray, taser, whatever the hell is required on someone that out of control and threatening receives my blessing. Just because you go into some form of public service work (i.e., police, health care, fire department, paramedic, etc) does not mean you are signing a consent to be a freaking pinata. Personally, I get tired of my "mature" adult patients thinking it is ok to beat the sh!t out of me if they want to; I sure as hell don't want to tolerate it from a rugrat ever again.

Hear ya. I worked in administration at a hospital with a locked adolescent unit. Every male member of my staff was trained in take downs as our offices were adjacent to the unit. It would take 6-8 people to get a kid down and in a burrito, so my guys got paged in on most of them. When they came back, it wasn't unusual to spend some time tending to scratches and bites.

[Angelskates]

ITA. I did some work experience at a center for disabled children, and there was a 6 year old so strong that all adults would stand well clear when he had fits and became angry.

I have been hospitalised for trying to intervene with an angry 6 year old. His parents didn't believe he had issues at all, even when shown video tapes, they still believed, "He's just a kid and kids are naughty sometimes."

Ziggy, it definitely sounds like you have no experience at all with special needs or emotionally disturbed children. Children with emotional and behavioural problems can do a lot of damage.

[IceAlisa]

Just because you go into some form of public service work (i.e., police, health care, fire department, paramedic, etc) does not mean you are signing a consent to be a freaking pinata.

[Capella]

I've fortunately never had to wrestle with a raging 8-year-old. I have, however, dealt with an enraged 7-pound cat. Should be a fair fight, no, with me having like 20x weight advantage? Not so much.

After watching the video of this kid talking about wanting to hurt his teachers, it reminded me of the play/movie "The Bad Seed." :shudder:

[misskarne]

I would have tazered the little shit. Then tazered his parents before I sent them to parenting classes.

You would have only tazered the parents? I'd have been pulling out my gun and making SURE they could never reproduce again...

An 8 year old boy? The police couldn't just pick him up? Really?

Not on your life! The kid had a stick and was threatening to kill people. I wouldn't have been wanting to have any physical contact with him at all. And if he was already in a rage, can you imagine what might have happened if the police had tried picking him up!?!??! In a rage, he's probably physically stronger than normal, and not likely to have stopped by the police telling him "no".

I fully support the actions of the police on this one.

*

And this talk that he has "disorders/problems/issues" is carp, IMO. Actually, I believe that nowadays a lot of the ADD/ADHD/ODD etc is a load of bullsh!t. I'm not saying they aren't genuine problems - I'm sure there are kids out there that genuinely have some messed up wiring in their brains that causes this.

But mostly I believe that these "disorders" are being used as an excuse for poor parenting.

[Angelskates]

...I believe that these "disorders" are being used as an excuse for poor parenting.

Or bad teaching.

[misskarne]

Or bad teaching.

It's not the teachers' responsibility to raise the child.

This is one of the things that really, really, really peeves me off about modern society - teachers are now expected by parents to raise the child, to teach them common sense and basic life skills and self-discipline, as well as everything else. It's no wonder teachers are stressed. Do you know how much they are forced by the state departments to cram into their lessons? I took teaching for two years at university (I left because I was sick of having to find curriculm justifications for putting out playdough in a preschool.) The curriculm document for my state is almost more than half made up of things that PARENTS should be giving their children.

[PrincessLeppard]

Angel is a teacher. However, I agree with you. If a kid had ADHD, etc, they need to learn coping skills. Most of my students with these diagnoses do not, and prefer to use it as an excuse.

[Aceon6]

Angel is a teacher. However, I agree with you. If a kid had ADHD, etc, they need to learn coping skills. Most of my students with these diagnoses do not, and prefer to use it as an excuse.

Agree. It takes a tremendous amount of dedication and patience from the parents to 1) be fully committed to the kid's educational plan and 2) apply the same reinforcements at home that are being used at school. Frankly, a lot of parents just aren't up to the task and it really hurts the kid's progress.

[judiz]

I teach Pre-Kindergarten and you would not believe how some of the children in my class behave. They spit in other kid's faces, they pinch, they knock them down like bowling pins, they tease, they exclude other kids etc. I try the best I can but I'm not the parents and when the parents don't teach manners......

I had a four year old tell another "if you're white you can come to my house" Sometimes I'm really scared for the future.

[numbers123]

you all talk as if it is easy to parent a child with ADHD or other disorder. It is not. You can go to all the IEPs, put into action the treatment plans laid out by the child's doctor and therapist, you can tackle the job of eliminating all processed foods/artificial dyes, etc. You can provide medications, observe them taking the medications, send the appropriate medications with all the appropriate releases/permission slips and doctor's name/number. And still the behavior happens. And once they become 8 or 9, they begin to learn how to pocket medications and not take them, even if you stand there for 15 minutes after they supposedly put them in their mouth.

The parent can do their best to parent and yet the child still acts out or gets into legal trouble. My mantra is and always will be - you do not have the ability to control your child's behavior you can provide guidance and set down expectations, but they still choose their own actions.

I do not know how this mom parents her child, I do not know what mental illness issues this child has, I do not know if the mother's behavior plays into the child's action. What I do know is that there are situations that might be exactly as some of you think - it is the parent's fault for not parenting, but I also know that there are some children who are struggling even with all the medical, pyschological, pharmacology, parenting, and teacher/parent collaboration. Do not lump all parents in the same - they spoiled their children category.

[rjblue]

Exactly how does a parent teach a child at home, with just parents and sibling, who is:

Polite at mealtimes at home.
Responsible with their belongings
Kind to their siblings
Loving and respectful of their parents
And prompt at doing chores

....the different set of behaviors they need when they are in a class with 25 other children their own age, and one adult who wants them all to behave and respond the same. The coping skills needed to be in a class, with a teacher who doesn't like you, and children who behave in all kinds of different ways than your family does, are so different from what they need at home.

The school does have to teach my son appropriate classroom behavior. I can't simulate it at home, and I'm tired of teachers expecting me to ground or punish my son, and make him cry and feel like a failure at home, because they can't keep him quiet enough at school.

eta- Good teachers, who pay attention to the individual nature of each child, have always had no problem with my son. He's about a foot taller than many boys his age, and about 2 years younger in maturity. Not a good combination for teachers who make assumptions based on appearance.

[Angelskates]

It's not the teachers' responsibility to raise the child.

This is one of the things that really, really, really peeves me off about modern society - teachers are now expected by parents to raise the child, to teach them common sense and basic life skills and self-discipline, as well as everything else. It's no wonder teachers are stressed. Do you know how much they are forced by the state departments to cram into their lessons? I took teaching for two years at university (I left because I was sick of having to find curriculm justifications for putting out playdough in a preschool.) The curriculm document for my state is almost more than half made up of things that PARENTS should be giving their children.

I'm a special education teacher. I don't think a teacher's job is to parent a child, but I think a teacher's job is to do everything possible to teach the children in his or her class, which means adapting lesson plans, and differentiation. I have many more debates with teachers than with parents when it comes to this. Teachers think it's more work, and it is, but it is also their job. Teachers need to learn different strategies, and not just teach to the "good" kids.

The parents I work with are mostly willing to learn strategies for working with their kids, the teachers are usually not, because they think it's the parent's job. I disagree. Many, many times the kids ARE misbehaving just a school, a lot of the time it's not because of ADHD (though many teachers diagnose this for any kids they can't deal with) but because they are easily distracted, have auditory processing problems, or have learning problems.

Part of my work involves assessing, and observations at schools more often than not show teaching problems, rather than problems with the students. Quite often, the kid really is different at home, and they're almost always different in their sessions with me. Sure, I also give the student and parents strategies to work better in their school classroom, but they need the teacher's help, rather than the teacher just thinking it's too much effort, the kid need medication or blaming it on bad parenting. Sometimes it is those things, and sometimes it's the teacher.

[Prancer]

If a kid had ADHD, etc, they need to learn coping skills.

And therein lies the rub with the idea that poor parenting is the excuse for everything, too. Everyone who is breathing is a work in progress and that includes children. Some children are going to have a much harder time developing those coping skills than others will--even if they have the best parents in the world. Of course some parents aren't going to do a good job; people are what they are and don't become magically better than that by virtue of becoming a parent. I know many people think that that used to happen and parents used to be all responsible and disciplined and all, but that's just . Yeah, I had good parents, too; it sure doesn't mean that everyone else did.

The best parents in the world can have rotten kids; the worst parents in the world can have great kids. It's not as easy as "Do WXY and you will get Z." For one thing, the definition of "good parenting" varies a great deal between individuals and appears to be mostly a matter of "this is how *I* think it should be done and my kids are almost perfect or would be if I had any."

[rjblue]

The best parents in the world can have rotten kids; the worst parents in the world can have great kids. It's not as easy as "Do WXY and you will get Z." For one thing, the definition of "good parenting" varies a great deal between individuals and appears to be mostly a matter of "this is how *I* think it should be done and my kids are almost perfect or would be if I had any."

Also- most parents who've raised more than one child will tell you that what works for one of their children is the wrong strategy for another. Yes, you have to be consistent for good discipline, but, for example, one of my daughters had to know that if she misbehaved, bad things would happen. My son has to know that if he does what I want, good things will happen. I could reward her all I wanted, but she wouldn't try any harder the next time. With my son, if he is told even once that he's pleased me, he'll make an effort to do whatever it is every time. But almost all teachers are negative reinforcers, because it works for the majority of students.

[Prancer]

Also- most parents who've raised more than one child will tell you that what works for one of their children is the wrong strategy for another.

Sure, and just as all kids cannot be raised by the recipe, so too not all parents are psychologically suited to raise all kids, either. Just because you give birth to a child does not mean that you are necessarily the best person to parent a particular child, even if you may be the best person to raise other children.

Most of us turn out okay anyway.

[agalisgv]

The school does have to teach my son appropriate classroom behavior. I can't simulate it at home, and I'm tired of teachers expecting me to ground or punish my son, and make him cry and feel like a failure at home, because they can't keep him quiet enough at school.

To me it seems if a teacher tells a parent a child is behaving inappropriately, then the parent should follow-up at home with the child to clearly explain what the child did wrong, and reinforce why such behavior is inappropriate. If a parent doesn't do that, the parent on some level is sending the message the child doesn't have to listen to the teacher because the parent won't enforce any standards set by the teacher.

It's one thing if a parent disagrees with the standards set by a teacher, but if that isn't the issue, teachers can't do everything by themselves--they need parents to back them up.

If a child cannot act appropriately in a social setting, that's something parents need to address. And an important way parents can do that is by backing up the teachers who are trying to enforce discipline in a social setting. Simply saying that's the teachers job and a parent has no obligation because they don't have a social setting at home only makes it harder for the child to behave appropriately in social settings, and that's not to anyone's benefit.

[rjblue]

To me it seems if a teacher tells a parent a child is behaving inappropriately, then the parent should follow-up at home with the child to clearly explain what the child did wrong, and reinforce why such behavior is inappropriate.

My son gets foolish (he's immature for his age) and acts like the class clown. He's often not allowed to play at recess or noon, because he has to stay in. He has 2 hours on the bus each day, and an hour of homework. Punishing him at home just sucks the last positive thing out of his life. I think he gets punished enough. It's not like he's agressive or dishonest, he gets punished for acting like a little boy.
We spent all fall talking to him, and reinforcing the teacher's requests to improve his behavior, and he nearly became seriously depressed. He felt like such a failure. We recognised the harm we were doing and started only talking to him about the good things he does at home, and our happy little son came back.

[Capella]

For those of us who went to school in the days before people were diagnosed with ADD/ADHD, etc., how did we get through life? I don't remember everything from when I was 5, 6, 7, etc., but I don't think those "designations" were used, and yet I don't remember any major issues with classmates. Maybe I blocked it out.