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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    To me it seems if a teacher tells a parent a child is behaving inappropriately, then the parent should follow-up at home with the child to clearly explain what the child did wrong, and reinforce why such behavior is inappropriate. If a parent doesn't do that, the parent on some level is sending the message the child doesn't have to listen to the teacher because the parent won't enforce any standards set by the teacher.

    It's one thing if a parent disagrees with the standards set by a teacher, but if that isn't the issue, teachers can't do everything by themselves--they need parents to back them up.

    If a child cannot act appropriately in a social setting, that's something parents need to address. And an important way parents can do that is by backing up the teachers who are trying to enforce discipline in a social setting. Simply saying that's the teachers job and a parent has no obligation because they don't have a social setting at home only makes it harder for the child to behave appropriately in social settings, and that's not to anyone's benefit.
    Yes.

    Sorry rjblue, but it sounds like you are part of the problem.

    And I KNOW some teachers are a-holes and define "bad behavior" as "won't listen to my stupid and irrational rules" but there is a point when people--kids--need to learn to cooperate and adjust, not always seek their own way. You aren't helping your son, you're making excuses for him and yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by rjblue View Post
    I think he gets punished enough.

    We spent all fall talking to him, and reinforcing the teacher's requests to improve his behavior
    How did you "reinforce the teacher's requests to improve behavior"? And for how long? And did you ever suggest to him that if he behaved as the teachers asked, he would avoid punishment at school?

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUNKPRINCESS View Post
    Yes.

    Sorry rjblue, but it sounds like you are part of the problem.

    And I KNOW some teachers are a-holes and define "bad behavior" as "won't listen to my stupid and irrational rules" but there is a point when people--kids--need to learn to cooperate and adjust, not always seek their own way. You aren't helping your son, you're making excuses for him and yourself.
    Yes, and some kids may be intellectually able to do the work, but are immature and should be held back a year. It can be amazing how much better they perform when not overstressed by the demands of classroom not suited to their needs. I also have seen children who do fine at home and are terrors at school. It can be an atypical presentation of separation anxiety, not always bad parenting. PTSD kids can also be terrors in the classroom.
    Last edited by mmscfdcsu; 04-09-2011 at 04:25 PM.

  3. #63

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    I'm going to come in as a parent to a child with ADHD who also has a learning disability. We are fortunate enough to be able to send our son to a smaller private school that is willing to work with us. When my son was starting school, I knew back then (pre-diagnosis) that going to a large public elementary school would be overwhelming to him. Based on parent intuition, it was a good idea to keep him in a smaller class. He's learning self-control (always a work in progress ) but with teachers who are not overwhelmed and can respond in a more positive manner. I guess IMO, it's very easy to judge and point fingers but none of us know the whole story there. I'm sure that there are people who look at my son's behavior some days and think that we are not doing such a great job (especially when he can still throw a massive tantrum). Oh well, we do the best we can for him. We continue to hold him accountable for his behavior and work closely with his school. So honestly I no longer worry about what others think. Self-preservation, I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PUNKPRINCESS View Post
    Sorry rjblue, but it sounds like you are part of the problem.

    And I KNOW some teachers are a-holes and define "bad behavior" as "won't listen to my stupid and irrational rules" but there is a point when people--kids--need to learn to cooperate and adjust, not always seek their own way. You aren't helping your son, you're making excuses for him and yourself.

    How did you "reinforce the teacher's requests to improve behavior"? And for how long? And did you ever suggest to him that if he behaved as the teachers asked, he would avoid punishment at school?
    Are you a parent? Are you a parent of more than one child? Are you a parent of a child with ADHD, ODD, Bi-Polar etc?

    If not, come back and let us know how you coped. Everyone is a better parent before they have kids. After you are a parent, you realize that maybe it is not so easy to parent.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by numbers123 View Post
    Are you a parent? Are you a parent of more than one child? Are you a parent of a child with ADHD, ODD, Bi-Polar etc?

    If not, come back and let us know how you coped. Everyone is a better parent before they have kids. After you are a parent, you realize that maybe it is not so easy to parent.
    I don't think it's wrong to think I'd do differently--and better--in specific circumstances with the particular parent I am addressing. I am 26 right now, and I plan to have kids later in life, thank you. No need to sound shrill and defensive.

  6. #66
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    Sorry, but Punkprincess and agalisgv are right--if you don't reinforce that the behavior's wrong, then all little Sweetums hears is that he's right, teacher is just a big meanie and he didn't do anything wrong.

    My kindergarden teacher was, frankly, a witch who hated her job (she did much better when the school got a clue and moved her to an older grade as that was a big part of the problem) and the class was, simply, way too easy for me and I was inclined to try doing my own thing and giving her minimal respect. (Nowdays I'm sure I'd have been diagnosed with a 'disorder' and medicated out the wazoo despite the fact there's nothing biomedically at issue.) My parents were inclined to think I was not actually the problem, but I still got punished if I got sent home with a note about misbehaving. Because the teacher was running the class and I had to learn to respect that. I got the message.

    If a child is so mentally impaired by whatever "diagnosis" they have that they can't function and it's just not lil' Snookum's fault and we can't reinforce the discipline at home because then he'd just be so sad, boo-hoo, maybe he needs to not be in that school. There's nothing more obnoxious than a 'class clown' who never outgrows it and if at home he's hearing "It's okay, it's not your fault" he never will.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    Sorry, but Punkprincess and agalisgv are right--if you don't reinforce that the behavior's wrong, then all little Sweetums hears is that he's right, teacher is just a big meanie and he didn't do anything wrong.

    My kindergarden teacher was, frankly, a witch who hated her job (she did much better when the school got a clue and moved her to an older grade as that was a big part of the problem) and the class was, simply, way too easy for me and I was inclined to try doing my own thing and giving her minimal respect. (Nowdays I'm sure I'd have been diagnosed with a 'disorder' and medicated out the wazoo despite the fact there's nothing biomedically at issue.) My parents were inclined to think I was not actually the problem, but I still got punished if I got sent home with a note about misbehaving. Because the teacher was running the class and I had to learn to respect that. I got the message.
    I had a witch for a daycare worker who instituted a sexist rule that girls could not play tag inside the classroom during playtime (while the boys were free to run around.) Well, I knew even as a 4 year old that that was the most ridiculous thing ever, so I disobeyed, ignored the daycare worker's warnings, and got sent to the corner. I was furious and rattled the nearby chair for the hour before it was time to go home. Witch told my mom that I'd been "bad" that day. I remember my mom asking me why I didn't listen to the grown-up (knowing that that's an expectation of good behavior) but I stayed quiet because I couldn't explain the unfairness at the time. (I also just thought "girl" and "boy" was an arbitrary designation, and wanted to be a "boy"--not knowing there were umm, biological reasons for that classification. ) So I feel bad for you; I wouldn't punish my future kid in that situation, just explain to him/her that the teacher does run the show in his/her classroom, and if one can't adjust, perhaps it's time to switch classrooms or schools...

    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    If a child is so mentally impaired by whatever "diagnosis" they have that they can't function and it's just not lil' Snookum's fault and we can't reinforce the discipline at home because then he'd just be so sad, boo-hoo, maybe he needs to not be in that school. There's nothing more obnoxious than a 'class clown' who never outgrows it and if at home he's hearing "It's okay, it's not your fault" he never will.
    That is true, too. "Class clown" and "just being a little boy" can still be disruptive to the other children, and it's still the teacher's job to teach. Although, I have heard that the traditional structure of schools today is not ideal for the way that boys develop (or something to that effect.)

    And, I will also state the converse: Just because a child is well-behaved in school (or public, whatever), does not mean that the parents are perfectly good parents.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capella View Post
    For those of us who went to school in the days before people were diagnosed with ADD/ADHD, etc., how did we get through life? I don't remember everything from when I was 5, 6, 7, etc., but I don't think those "designations" were used, and yet I don't remember any major issues with classmates. Maybe I blocked it out.
    I'm 63, so I went to elementary school from the mid to late 50's. I remember both good and bad about the way things were done. I was a good student, not genius, but could read before I started school, always made good grades, etc. I can remember times when I received favorable treatment because of that. I remember clearly students who needed academic help and didn't get it. We didn't know what special education was, but the students I recall with sadness not only didn't get help, they were sometimes singled out, even punished, because they had difficulty. They had no advocates then. Of all my childhood memories, these kids are the saddest. I am so ashamed when I think of how embarrassed they must have been, and how hurt.

    As far as classroom behavior goes, though, I remember only one student from all those years who had real problems. Back then, we just thought she was mean. Kind of like a female Ernest T. Bass. Even with her problems, there were never any incidents like the one that started this thread. Kids for the most part behaved themselves, and this was in classrooms with upwards of 30 students.

    When I was in 4th grade, I received a grade of C for citizenship, which was our designation for deportment. I know that I deserved that low grade because I ran my mouth constantly. My daddy threw a fit, directed at me, not the teacher. It never happened again. I honestly don't remember any incidents through twelve years of school of anyone's parents visiting the school to take issue with any policies.

    Our education probably seems barbaric to the younger generations, but it seems like most of us learned to read and get along with each other and make it in the world. Those of us who went to college did well. Those who didn't go to college did well, too. In my class of 85, there are doctors, attorneys, judges, teachers, nurses, and I don't think anyone went to the pen. In the class behind ours were four National Merit Scholars. On the flip side, those kids I referred to earlier never finished school at all.

    What happens at school is a reflection of the greater world, and the world was different then.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUNKPRINCESS View Post
    So I feel bad for you; I wouldn't punish my future kid in that situation, just explain to him/her that the teacher does run the show in his/her classroom, and if one can't adjust, perhaps it's time to switch classrooms or schools...
    .
    I don't. I learned to obey the teacher, reasonable or not, which served me very well the rest of my school career--I NEVER got in trouble, and by high school as far as the faculty and staff were concerned I could pretty much set my own agenda. My parents never had to worry if they loaned me the car or if I asked to do something like go to a community-theater cast party--they knew I wasn't going to do anything they'd disapprove of. They knew I wasn't going to break any rules. We need more children to learn to do as they're told because authority figures are just that, authority figures. It's not a five-year-old's place to question a teacher's decision. If you reward obedience and punish disobedience it does a much better job setting kids up for later when they run into many real-world rules that are illogical. Dura lex, sed lex--the law is hard but it's the law.

    I would much rather not have to deal with "why". If I tell a kid on a school tour not to touch something in our museum or stop running, the correct response is to obey, not to question why. Be quiet, do as you're told, and you get priviliges. Don't listen, you get punished. 99% of children can handle that if it's applied evenly from early on. The 1% that can't are the ones with REAL issues.

  10. #70

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    I am a Pre- K teacher, I had a child in my class a few years ago, he use to hit, spit and go into rages where he would snap his glasses in half. Once in a fit of anger he pushed an entire shelf over knocking all the toys to the floor. We sat down with the parents many times to discuss their child, begged them to have him evaluated before he started elementary school. The parents refused, chosing to blame the school, the other children in the class. I have since seen the parents twice since their son started first grade. The parents pulled him from his first school because they were not happy he was being sent to the principal's office for misbehaving in class. The parents were told he needed to be evaluated while at the second school but the parents threatened to sue the school system. The last time I saw the family they were planning to put their house up for sale and move to a district where their son wouldn't be tramautized by administrators.

  11. #71
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    Yeah, well. Wherever you go, there you are.
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  12. #72

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    These parents need to home school this child...maybe see what angel is like in a learning situtation.
    "awwww....shades of Janet Lynn" - Dick Button on anyone who makes more than one mistake in their program.

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grannyfan View Post
    What happens at school is a reflection of the greater world, and the world was different then.
    So true. I attended a neighborhood school which guaranteed that everyone in the class was of relatively the same socio-economic class. Kids of different abilities were only together in kindergarten and first grade. After that, the grades were split by ability. By 5th grade, the classes were segmented again by IQ and other test scores, so that only the top 25% was in one class, the next 25% in another, and so on. While it did have the positive of making it easier for the teachers to develop lesson plans, the unintended consequence was an early set-up of extreme haves vs. have-nots. It was great if you were in an A or B section, terrible for those in C and D who played catch up all through high school.

    Another factor of the time was the absolute authority of educators, clergy, and law enforcement. No matter how far-fetched, if you got in trouble with any, you were punished. Standards of behavior were fairly consistent from neighbor to neighbor, so it wasn't that uncommon to get a scolding from the lady three doors down. I think that's why I am sometimes impatient with my younger relatives parenting styles as it was SO consistent in my day, I have a hard time wrapping my head around what's done now.

    It was VERY different.
    AceOn6, the golf loving skating fan

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjblue View Post
    We spent all fall talking to him, and reinforcing the teacher's requests to improve his behavior, and he nearly became seriously depressed. He felt like such a failure. We recognised the harm we were doing and started only talking to him about the good things he does at home, and our happy little son came back.
    I hate to say it, but you're feeding into that whole "self esteem" problem that is an issue with so many of today's youngsters who think they can do no wrong as far as their parents tell them. At some point you are going to have to address his behavior in school.

    If he feels like a failure, than you need to reinforce the idea that, in order to feel like a success, he needs to start behaving the way that his teacher(s) and, by extension, the rest of (decent, polite, "with class") society expects him to. Otherwise, he's never going to learn, and people won't want him around because he is still acting out, especially once he gets to an age where he should know better. That needs to happen from the get-go.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    We need more children to learn to do as they're told because authority figures are just that, authority figures. It's not a five-year-old's place to question a teacher's decision. If you reward obedience and punish disobedience it does a much better job setting kids up for later when they run into many real-world rules that are illogical.


    Now all we need is for all the parents to understand that and start raising their kids by that concept.

    I would much rather not have to deal with "why". If I tell a kid on a school tour not to touch something in our museum or stop running, the correct response is to obey, not to question why. Be quiet, do as you're told, and you get priviliges. Don't listen, you get punished. 99% of children can handle that if it's applied evenly from early on. The 1% that can't are the ones with REAL issues
    Well, it's really simple. Parents (and other adults in charge) don't have to explain "why". I was raised with the concept of "since when does an adult EVER have to justify themselves to a child when telling them what the rules are in a given situation". They DON'T. I was told by my parents that, when I had my own place and was paying all my own bills, THEN I could make the household rules. Not before that. And my siblings and I were expected to follow the rules wherever we went, otherwise we'd be in huge trouble.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUNKPRINCESS View Post
    How did you "reinforce the teacher's requests to improve behavior"? And for how long? And did you ever suggest to him that if he behaved as the teachers asked, he would avoid punishment at school?
    I took away- friends visiting priviliges
    -then his video games
    - then his computer
    - then his Magic cards (role playing game)
    - then all TV (which he does not have in his room, btw)
    -then his bicycle

    He also was grilled every night by his father, and I reminded him every day that he should be quiet in class. This went on for months, till one day he had a breakdown at home where he cried and cried and said that he felt his Dad didn't care about him or like him at all.

    He doesn't have any learning disablity. He's always been extraordinarily tall for his age, and that results in people expecting more mature behavior from him. Here's an example of the things that happen to him. Three boys were banging on the lockers at school. He looked at them, made a goofy face, and pretended to bang on his. A teacher walked around the corner, and yelled and yelled at him for making a disruption. She made him sit apart from the class for 15 min, and then came over to scold him some more. His eyes teared up and he told her it wasn't him making the noise. She finally asked the other boys(little cute ones) if it was them, and they admitted it was them and not my son. She made them apologise to him, but they got NO punishment.

    You will find when you have children, that there are things you CAN'T make them do until they mature into the capability. My son's best friend is also constantly in trouble at school (they are in different classes) for the same kind of goofy behavior. They are 14, but they still play sports all the time after school, they play board games, they explore and build forts. They are polite and quiet in my house. They don't chase girls, or do drugs, or vandalise the community. They are kind to the children in younger grades. A classroom of 25 children the same age is probably the worst option for both of them, but there are no alternatives available here, and neither his friends Mom or I can home school them.
    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice
    If I tell a kid on a school tour not to touch something in our museum or stop running, the correct response is to obey, not to question why. Be quiet, do as you're told, and you get priviliges.
    I have three children. My son is the only one I didn't have to put away the breakables for when he was a toddler. He always does as I ask to this day.

    eta- Can someone make a concrete suggestion as to how to teach a child to be quiet,calm, and focused while in a large group of their peers? (This a serious request. I can't think of anything that doesn't involve attending school with him, and that is not allowed)
    Last edited by rjblue; 04-10-2011 at 12:30 AM.
    ‎"You emerge victorious from the maze you've been travelling in." Oct 21,2012- Best Fortune Cookie Ever!

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    eta- Can someone make a concrete suggestion as to how to teach a child to be quiet,calm, and focused while in a large group of their peers?
    You make it clear to them that, even if other kids are acting up, THEY are expected to behave at all times, that you don't get to predicate your behavior on someone else's. There is that saying in response to "but so-and-so was doing it too" - "if everyone else is jumping off the bridge, are you going to do it as well? 'Course, you say that to kids nowadays, and you'll have to hear them saying "what if there's a good reason for it?" but you get the idea...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karina1974 View Post
    You make it clear to them that, even if other kids are acting up, THEY are expected to behave at all times, that you don't get to predicate your behavior on someone else's. .... but you get the idea...
    Did you read how we punished him, in the post I just made. We made his life miserable at home for months, because he would (eta- could not) not be quiet in the classroom. He KNOWS how he is expected to behave. He WANTS to be able to behave that way. HOW do I, at home, help him get those skills?

    eta- He goes to church every Sunday. He's been able to sit still in the pew since his early toddler years, and has always behaved quietly, and attentively to the mass. His attention span is not the problem.
    Last edited by rjblue; 04-10-2011 at 12:54 AM.
    ‎"You emerge victorious from the maze you've been travelling in." Oct 21,2012- Best Fortune Cookie Ever!

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    Yeah, well. Wherever you go, there you are.
    Indeed.

    My kindergarten teacher violated my Constitutional rights. My fourth grade teacher pounded me on the head with her fist repeatedly because I got a math problem wrong--but that was better than what she did to one of my classmates, who got paddled at least once a week for fidgeting and talking back and whatever else. All of which, mind you, the girl continued to do because after you get paddled a few times, you get used to it and it doesn't make much of an impression any more, even when the teacher escalates the paddling.

    One of the middle schools I attended was basically a holding pen. The curriculum was dumbed down to an unbelievable degree when it was taught at all. There were kids who had sex in the stairwells, fights broke out several times a day, and on my third day of attending this school in the paradise of education past, two boys I didn't know tackled me, broke my arm and stole my purse. I was later held up at knife point and never did manage to make it to lunch with lunch money or lunch, as both were taken from me every day.

    I went to a very strict high school where students who acted up in any way were kicked out. My freshman year, there were nearly 1000 students in my class; by my senior year, there were less than 200. All those kids who were kicked out didn't grow up and improve because of all that strict discipline; they just went to other schools. Or dropped out. The dropout rate was a lot higher then, although not nearly as high as it was before that. Statistically, my generation did far more drugs and drank a lot more alcohol and had more sex and unplanned pregnancies than kids do now, so I guess bad behavior and dropping out was kind a given.

    Oh, yeah, and my parents were obviously bad and enabling, because they actually went to the school and protested some of the things that happened to me. Tsk. As did other parents, although I don't remember hearing about it. Of course, being a goodie two shoes, I was an aide and got out of class all the time and spent a lot of time in the office, so I got to actually see them.

    Do I get to define "how things were in the past" too? Can I apply my personal experience across the board and say not "This is how it was for me" but "This is how it was"?

    Quote Originally Posted by rjblue View Post
    eta- Can someone make a concrete suggestion as to how to teach a child to be quiet,calm, and focused while in a large group of their peers? (This a serious request. I can't think of anything that doesn't involve attending school with him, and that is not allowed)
    It sounds like he finds being in groups overstimulating. I sympathize, as being in groups tends to wind me up even now. The only thing that helps me is relaxation. I had to learn how to stop, take a few deep breaths and calm that adrenaline rush--and do it all again as soon as I felt that tightening-up sensation. I still forget to do that sometimes and off I will go.

    FWIW, I think you were right to back off at home. It's one thing to reinforce the fact that he needs to behave at school, quite another to remove all the light from his life.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjblue View Post
    I took away- friends visiting priviliges
    -then his video games
    - then his computer
    - then his Magic cards (role playing game)
    - then all TV (which he does not have in his room, btw)
    -then his bicycle

    He also was grilled every night by his father, and I reminded him every day that he should be quiet in class. This went on for months, till one day he had a breakdown at home where he cried and cried and said that he felt his Dad didn't care about him or like him at all.
    This sounds EXACTLY like my oldest daughter. When she started Kindergarten we thought all was well. she always said school was OK etc...then we got the shocking phone call that our quiet little 5 year old was continuously acting up, kicking the teacher, threatening to bite the teacher, screaming and crying etc... She NEVER EVER EVER acted this way at home, I was floored! And extremely embarrassed. This was well into the year and i was shocked she wouldn't have contacted us earlier. The next day we made her march her little self into that school, apologize to her teacher and to her classmates, and she was punished at home. she knew she was wrong, but she would come home and not be in trouble because we had no clue it was going on. So she assumed she was in the clear. That was a rough school year. She would occasionally act out, we'd get the report, and we had to go though it all over again. only every time she was a little better about it. Now, at the beginning of every school year, we ask the teacher to let us know IMMEDIATELY if there are any issues. Every year has gotten better and better. She's older, knows we communicate with the teachers, and knows she's not getting away with it. This year she absolutely loves school. But she was a hard one to train.

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