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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    Aside from the obvious flip and flutz techniques that Sarah had, Sarah was a much more elegant skater than Elaine was. I liked Elaine, but IMO there was a heaviness to her skating and a lack of body awareness.
    Sarah had a very gangly posture when she skated, and while she hit beautiful positions in the spins, her stroking left a lot to be desired imho.
    I loved her double axel and her layback though. And she was a great competitor as usual with most of the American ladies skaters

  2. #82

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    Is it naive to say that The WHACK made some of the public powers that be in US Skating take a step back and be more gracious towards skaters who aren't elegant and refined both on and off the ice?

    I think Elaine is a fantastic coach, especially for the jumps. We are lucky to still have her in our sport.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    Witt's figures placing were crazy as well - '83 Worlds - 8th, '84 Worlds - 1st
    I know but many put that down to politics it seems (and she only won the figures at the 84 Worlds since Sumners, Voderezova, and Leistner all did not attend). While on the other hand nobody makes note of Sumners huge jump in figures placings from the 81-82 and previous seasons to the 82-83 season which I find interesting. Sumners was only 5th in figures at her own Nationals in 82 before coming back to win her first U.S title, and I think 8th in figures at an event like Skate Canada where she lost to Tracy Wainmann due to her huge figures deficit. Suddenly in one season she went from being horrible at figures to being dominant in them. Figures is of course the reason she so easily won the 83 Worlds when she was 4th in the short program and barely won the long program over Witt, and nearly won the Olympic Gold despite her dissapointing freestyle performances.

    For the record I have not seen video footage of Sumners doing one compulsory figure ever which makes it all the more intriguing.

  4. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I know but many put that down to politics it seems (and she only won the figures at the 84 Worlds since Sumners, Voderezova, and Leistner all did not attend). While on the other hand nobody makes note of Sumners huge jump in figures placings from the 81-82 and previous seasons to the 82-83 season which I find interesting. Sumners was only 5th in figures at her own Nationals in 82 before coming back to win her first U.S title, and I think 8th in figures at an event like Skate Canada where she lost to Tracy Wainmann due to her huge figures deficit. Suddenly in one season she went from being horrible at figures to being dominant in them. Figures is of course the reason she so easily won the 83 Worlds when she was 4th in the short program and barely won the long program over Witt, and nearly won the Olympic Gold despite her dissapointing freestyle performances.

    For the record I have not seen video footage of Sumners doing one compulsory figure ever which makes it all the more intriguing.
    As someone who competed in figures, I have to say that it was not difficult to have a great figures competition in one year and a sucky one the next. It was very stressful, and maybe more inconsistent than free skating.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    As someone who competed in figures, I have to say that it was not difficult to have a great figures competition in one year and a sucky one the next. It was very stressful, and maybe more inconsistent than free skating.
    I am not talking individual competitions only though. Sumners was very weak in figures in EVERY competition before the 82-83 season including when she won her first National title, then seemed to win figures in every competition starting in the 82-83 season.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    While on the other hand nobody makes note of Sumners huge jump in figures placings from the 81-82 and previous seasons to the 82-83 season which I find interesting. Sumners was only 5th in figures at her own Nationals in 82 before coming back to win her first U.S title, and I think 8th in figures at an event like Skate Canada where she lost to Tracy Wainmann due to her huge figures deficit. Suddenly in one season she went from being horrible at figures to being dominant in them. Figures is of course the reason she so easily won the 83 Worlds when she was 4th in the short program and barely won the long program over Witt, and nearly won the Olympic Gold despite her dissapointing freestyle performances.

    For the record I have not seen video footage of Sumners doing one compulsory figure ever which makes it all the more intriguing.
    Kristofics-Binder and Cottrill retired in 1982 and Wegelius in 1983, the three dominating figures in figures.

    Sumners' figure coach was Kathy Casey (at least during the Olympic season). Perhaps she was good or maybe had political clout?

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    she only won the figures at the 84 Worlds since Sumners, Voderezova, and Leistner all did not attend).
    ...
    For the record I have not seen video footage of Sumners doing one compulsory figure ever which makes it all the more intriguing.
    She also won figures in 1988 (against Manley and Thomas no less...).

    Also for some skaters placements have something to do with what figures are drawn.

    I wish I could find what figures (including starting edges) were skated at which competitin, you'd probably find that lots of skaters just did some figures better than others.

    IIRC 1984 and 1988 both had paragraph double threes (and Witt seemed to do worse when the paragraph figure was a bracket). Didn't Jill Trenary bomb with an inside counter in 1987 worlds (and then again 1988 olys)?

    I'm especially curious about which figures were skated at 1989 worlds.

    There's a few seconds of Sumners doing a figure on youtube (inside counter or rocker IIRC) and she looks pretty good and uncle Dick seemed impressed.

  8. #88
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    It is also amazing to look at the 84 and 88 Olympics and note how much stronger and deeper the 88 field was than the 84 field. In 1984 atleast half of the final flight were frankly a joke for elite skaters contending for medals. However by 1988 you had quality skaters pushed out of the final flight and so many interesting skaters and performances. Doesnt the fact Rosalynn Sumners ended up entering the 84 Olympics as the gold medal favorite say enough about the field, LOL (with all due respect to Sumners). I would say the only post World War 11 year the Olympic field was weaker than 1984 was 1980.

    Someone like Leistner for instance was in the same shape in 84 as she was in 88 she probably would have been on the podium in 84. She was after all the silver medalist at the 83 Worlds, but was injured for the Sarajevo Games which is why she did poorly. In 1988 she was at the same level she was at when she was clearly one of the top skaters in 82 and 83 but was reduced to an also ran by the field.

  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    In 1988 she was at the same level she was at when she was clearly one of the top skaters in 82 and 83 but was reduced to an also ran by the field.
    Well that, plus her disastrous SP didn't help.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by pollyanna View Post
    Well that, plus her disastrous SP didn't help.
    OMG, what a shock !
    This is the first time I watch it. Too bad about the spin, her jumps were beautiful in this SP !

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    It is also amazing to look at the 84 and 88 Olympics and note how much stronger and deeper the 88 field was than the 84 field. In 1984 atleast half of the final flight were frankly a joke for elite skaters contending for medals. However by 1988 you had quality skaters pushed out of the final flight and so many interesting skaters and performances. Doesnt the fact Rosalynn Sumners ended up entering the 84 Olympics as the gold medal favorite say enough about the field, LOL (with all due respect to Sumners). I would say the only post World War 11 year the Olympic field was weaker than 1984 was 1980.

    Someone like Leistner for instance was in the same shape in 84 as she was in 88 she probably would have been on the podium in 84. She was after all the silver medalist at the 83 Worlds, but was injured for the Sarajevo Games which is why she did poorly. In 1988 she was at the same level she was at when she was clearly one of the top skaters in 82 and 83 but was reduced to an also ran by the field.
    I mentioned this before but find it worth repeating:

    The retirements and injuries prior to Sarajevo really contributed to it being a mediocre field. Can you imagine if Biellmann, Kristofics-Binder, Cottrill and Wegelius had stuck around 'til '84 in good form, and if Zayak had not been injured and in top form? There would've been 7 - 8 ladies capable of medalling if you include Chin bursting forth and wunderkind Ito making it out of JPN nats.

    Biellmann, Witt and Sumners would've all threatened for Gold w/ a healthy Zayak as a dark-horse menace. Then, outsiders like Cottrill with strong figures, good basics, and strong free skating w/ a 3loop would have been ready to sweep in if anyone failed.

    I also think you would've seen breathtaking swaps in the standings with Kristofics-Binder taking command instead of Roz after the figures, and while she was not the strongest in the SP or LP, she was capable of doing enough in the SP to stay in the hunt heading into the LP [she was '82 Euro Champ after all], then Biellmann, Witt, Sumners moving ahead possibly [if clean] after the SP, a healthy Zayak playing catch-up and newcomers Chin and Ito mucking up the ranks and causing flip-flopping with their strong SPs and LPs.

    It would've been a verrryy interesting competition on par w/ Calgary in '88

  12. #92
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    I agree entirely with all you said. However I would add if Wainmann had developed properly and not burnt out, and if Voderezova had not had her health problems and carried onto becoming the phenom in the making she looked in the late 70s. Both would have definitely been contenders for gold too in that case. And if Leistner was not injured in the 84 season she would have been a major threat for a medal in the field as it was too, maybe not for the gold. She was 2nd at the 83 Worlds after all and she could do 5 or 6 triples in a program (or atleast attempt) when healthy and fit.

    As it was though Sarajevo did have 8 or 9 women who had a chance to medal- Sumners, Witt, Leistner, Voderezova, Kondrashova, Ivanova, Chin, Zayak, maybe Rueben. For the most part though it was a matter of who would suck the least overall (considering figures problems for some of them). By the time of the long program it was whichever of the 3 Soviet girls would splatfest the least, and who actually gave a darn about the wide open medal at stake (it honestly looked like none of them even wanted it much which is funny), would get the bronze. After all you know all 3 would probably skate poorly in the long program. So it was still very competitive, just that the top group was mostly on par with the Calgary B group as far as standard.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I agree entirely with all you said. However I would add if Wainmann had developed properly and not burnt out, and if Voderezova had not had her health problems and carried onto becoming the phenom in the making she looked in the late 70s. Both would have definitely been contenders for gold too in that case. And if Leistner was not injured in the 84 season she would have been a major threat for a medal in the field as it was too, maybe not for the gold. She was 2nd at the 83 Worlds after all and she could do 5 or 6 triples in a program (or atleast attempt) when healthy and fit.

    As it was though Sarajevo did have 8 or 9 women who had a chance to medal- Sumners, Witt, Leistner, Voderezova, Kondrashova, Ivanova, Chin, Zayak, maybe Rueben. For the most part though it was a matter of who would suck the least overall (considering figures problems for some of them). By the time of the long program it was whichever of the 3 Soviet girls would splatfest the least, and who actually gave a darn about the wide open medal at stake (it honestly looked like none of them even wanted it much which is funny), would get the bronze. After all you know all 3 would probably skate poorly in the long program. So it was still very competitive, just that the top group was mostly on par with the Calgary B group as far as standard.

    Thanks, and I forgot about Wainman. Developing properly, she would've done well. I remember watching her at '81 Worlds where I believe she finished 9th as either a 13 or 14 yr. old. I was watching a Canadian broadcast at the time and the commentators were ga-ga over her.

    In essence, I think the '84 Olympics would've actually been very interesting if all the pieces fell in place. I for one would've loved to have seen Biellmann win an Olympic Gold which theoretically could've happened

  14. #94
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    Wainmann beat Claudia Binder in many of the international events in fall 1981 especialy, and Binder ended up winning bronze at the 81 and 82 Worlds. Wainmann was still only 13 or 14 at that point. When Wainmann won Skate Canada in 1981 she beat an extremely strong field that had Sumners, Ivanova, Binder, Manley, Hill, all in the event. Losing at Canadians in 82 though and missing the World team, was the beginning of the end for her though. She was probably overhyped here in Canada as many of our skaters tend to be (especialy up and comers) but she was definitely being touted as our hope to win gold in 84. The CSA with David Dore coming and and adopting a more agressive mentality for the team pushed her hard from the very start, sending her to the 1980 Worlds at 12 over two journeywomen skaters who had beaten her at Canadians that year. Both of these women were so distraught over the decision it contributed to their immediate retirements.

  15. #95
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    Wainman did not have good enough jump technique when it came to double axels and triples so that when she grew, there was no technique to get through the puberty monster. It's a shame because she had a lot of other wonderful abilities on the ice. But lookng back at her videos, the almost hysterical commentary from the CTV team of Wilkes, Jelinek and Johnny Esaw is very uncomfortable to listen to. I'd love to know how she started getting such wonderful figures placements in 1981. I mean she weighed all of about 12 llbs so I don't know how they could even see the tracings!! That said, even if she had the better technique to pull through the growth spurts with triples intact, I don't see her competing with the likes of Witt, Zayak, a theoretically present Biellmann etc.

    Lesitner's '88 SP Failed flying camel aside, she had the WORST choreography ever bestowed on a skater for most of her career and that awful European packaging that made teenage girls look as though they were pushing 40. (See Manuela Ruben for further evidence.)

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by floskate View Post
    Lesitner's .... she had the WORST choreography ever bestowed on a skater for most of her career and that awful European packaging
    I suspect a pan-German conspiracy to come up with choreography so awful it made Jutta Muller's choreography for Witt seem good in comparison.....

    I actually have a lot of residual affection for her 88-89 lp (especially at 88 skate america where she beat Ito(!) and Yamaguchi(!) (overall not in the lp). Such a wrong-headed hot mess that it sort of won my heart. Here it is in all its glory:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzW0q-mH5ZI
    Last edited by Mafke; 04-25-2011 at 09:49 PM.

  17. #97
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    What about her 88 season long program. I have never seen a program with so many and such bizarre music cuts before, along with the baffling array of Egyptian or Chicken dance like movements throughout:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1awmbS2glY

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    .. along with the baffling array of Egyptian or Chicken dance like movements throughout:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1awmbS2glY
    I recall Anett Poetzsch doing chicken dance moves in her '80 LP. Is that a pan-German thing?

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by floskate View Post
    she had the WORST choreography ever bestowed on a skater for most of her career and that awful European packaging that made teenage girls look as though they were pushing 40. (See Manuela Ruben for further evidence.)
    I thought Leistner was ahead of her time artistically. Plus a butch mullet to complete the package .

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    I recall Anett Poetzsch doing chicken dance moves in her '80 LP. Is that a pan-German thing?
    No, Urmanov cornered the market on the chicken dance. Anett did some sort of charming hunching over while sticking both arms and a leg in and out to the beat of the music. For some reason I liked that move

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