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  1. #41

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    Kat was so wonderful in the SP, I doubt that even a perfectly-clean skate by Roz could have won her the SPs segment. Kat's jumps were enormous -- not merely completed -- and her footwork to the Hungarian music was one of the best footwork sequences ever by a woman in an Olympics. On top of that, she had the musicality, charisma, speed...all of the elements that racked-up huge 'artistic impression' marks.
    Dick Button Historical Quote of the Month: "Good for you, Lucinda Ruh!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frau Muller View Post
    Kat was so wonderful in the SP, I doubt that even a perfectly-clean skate by Roz could have won her the SPs segment. Kat's jumps were enormous -- not merely completed -- and her footwork to the Hungarian music was one of the best footwork sequences ever by a woman in an Olympics. On top of that, she had the musicality, charisma, speed...all of the elements that racked-up huge 'artistic impression' marks.

    Probably true. And the judges were probably interested in keeping Witt and Roz close together so that the LP would be a real showdown, to keep the competition more interesting.

    Although, Chin had her fans who believe she should've won the SP portion [I'm not one of them] I would've had the SP - 1. Witt, 2. Chin, 3. Zayak, 4. Ivanova, 5. Kondrashova, 6. Sumners.

    Roz was only 4th in '83? Did she have a mistake?

  3. #43
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LR_lrAuec2M
    Ros USA Nats 1984 Lp
    Ros's USA Nationals lp when i compare it to Kats Lp at OLY's i still have Kat ahead

    Kats 1984 Euro Lp
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZgbyVGOA4U

  4. #44
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    Nice to read this thread and it's safe to say after discussing this event many times over the years, that most people agree that Zayak was hosed big time. It's so great that these threads have been around to show how great she actually was rather than the crap peddled by certain history books and Evy Scotvold inparticular

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by floskate View Post
    Nice to read this thread and it's safe to say after discussing this event many times over the years, that most people agree that Zayak was hosed big time. It's so great that these threads have been around to show how great she actually was rather than the crap peddled by certain history books and Evy Scotvold inparticular
    Elaine Zayak + Evy Scotvold =

  6. #46
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    I think these would have been my placings for each program:

    Short programs:

    1. Witt
    2. Chin
    3. Zayak
    4. Ivanova
    5. Sumners
    6. Kondrashova

    Long program:

    1. Chin
    2. Zayak
    3. Witt
    4. Sumners
    5. Kondrashova
    6. Ivanova

    I didnt think Witts long program was anything great. I had no problem with her winning the gold but if people think Sumners was overmarked I think Witt was just as much in the long program. She also popped some jumps and had some tight landings, and I found choreographically it was a hot mess somewhat. I thought the 5.9s for presentation were a joke.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    Elaine Zayak + Evy Scotvold =
    You need to watch that Fire on Ice documentary on US ladies skaters .

  8. #48

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    Here it is:
    Sumners, Zayak, Witt: (with Scotvold's ire)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0_iCNHIk7k
    Last edited by skatesindreams; 04-13-2011 at 12:04 AM. Reason: to add link

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by longingfornia View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LR_lrAuec2M
    Ros USA Nats 1984 Lp
    Ros's USA Nationals lp when i compare it to Kats Lp at OLY's i still have Kat ahead
    If you take into account Roz's waxel and the popped axel in the mid section then yes I would still give Kat the slight head up since Kat was essentially clean. I liked the second half of Roz's LP at Nationals. The 3toes looked quite solid there. If she had ended her Olympic LP strongly like that then she might have been able to sway at least one more judge to give her 1st place. Too bad she wimped out at Sarejevo. Dick Button reported that she had a perfect run through at the previous night practice session.

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    Roz was only 4th in '83? Did she have a mistake?
    Yes, she two-footed her toe loop.

    Quote Originally Posted by floskate View Post
    You need to watch that Fire on Ice documentary on US ladies skaters .
    Scotvold is such a butthead. He didn't even mention that Elaine competed fabulous 3 salchows and 3 loops. Very few ladies of that era had jumps more difficult than 3 toes and 3 salchows. At least Evy acknowledged that Elaine could perform those 3 toes from all sorts of different entrances. How many other ladies then could complete 2 axel-3toes or 2 lutz-3 toes? I repeat, he's a butthead.

    Quote Originally Posted by skatesindreams View Post
    Here it is:
    Sumners, Zayak, Witt: (with Scotvold's ire)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0_iCNHIk7k
    Skatesindreams, THANK YOU for all these wonderful links.

    Elaine Zayak is one of my skating idols. I wonder if looking back now, those judges or any other USFSA or ISU officials admit to themselves that Elaine "got hosed."

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by floskate View Post
    You need to watch that Fire on Ice documentary on US ladies skaters .
    Thanks. Will watch when the BF relaxes

    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I think these would have been my placings for each program:

    Short programs:

    1. Witt
    2. Chin
    3. Zayak
    4. Ivanova
    5. Sumners
    6. Kondrashova

    Long program:

    1. Chin
    2. Zayak
    3. Witt
    4. Sumners
    5. Kondrashova
    6. Ivanova

    I didnt think Witts long program was anything great. I had no problem with her winning the gold but if people think Sumners was overmarked I think Witt was just as much in the long program. She also popped some jumps and had some tight landings, and I found choreographically it was a hot mess somewhat. I thought the 5.9s for presentation were a joke.
    LOL. You and I are dead on for the SP. The only difference being Sumners and Kondrashova flip-flopped. Why would you have put Sumners ahead of Kondrashova? Sumners had a mandatory deduction w/ the 2 footed 2x. Although, I remember Kondrashova had a near step-out or something on a jump, and wobbled pretty obviously on a spin. Maybe you called them even w/ a slight nod to Roz for her superior basics and choreography?

    Interesting that you put Witt behind Chin and Zayak in the LP. I have to think about what I'd do. Obviously, the LP would've been Witt and the 3 Americans in some form in the top 4

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    Thanks. Will watch when the BF relaxes



    LOL. You and I are dead on for the SP. The only difference being Sumners and Kondrashova flip-flopped. Why would you have put Sumners ahead of Kondrashova? Sumners had a mandatory deduction w/ the 2 footed 2x. Although, I remember Kondrashova had a near step-out or something on a jump, and wobbled pretty obviously on a spin. Maybe you called them even w/ a slight nod to Roz for her superior basics and choreography?

    Interesting that you put Witt behind Chin and Zayak in the LP. I have to think about what I'd do. Obviously, the LP would've been Witt and the 3 Americans in some form in the top 4

    I had Sumners over Kondrashova in the SP since even though Sumners put her foot down on the double axel and had a very shaky camel spin I thought Kondrashova struggled through almost all the technically elements and technically it was just a fairly weak performance. And artistically I dont find Annas short as interesting as her long which I absolutely loved except for all the inevitable missed jumps and overall tenativeness.

    I put Chin and Zayak over Witt in the LP since I dont like Witts LP choreography that much and I dont think she even gave a great performance. I find it surprising people are that surprised it was so close between Witt and Sumners. Witt also popped several jumps and gave a somewhat marred and unspectacular performance for which she was given inflated scores just as Sumners probably also was. Chin made a very good attempt on a triple flip and Zayak had more 4 successful triples which was the most.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Witt also popped several jumps and gave a somewhat marred and unspectacular performance for which she was given inflated scores just as Sumners probably also was.
    I don't think Witt popped any jumps in her LP. She decided not to go for the 3flip and did a solid double instead. I don't think she had any plan to go for the 3loop either.

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    She popped the first triple salchow into a double. Dick Button also said the sequence that included a double flip had planned to have a triple of some sort. One of her double jumps it looked likes she stepped out of too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taso View Post
    That's only the surface of it. IIRC she was raised by her grandmother (I have no idea what happened to her parents) and her twin sister had committed suicide
    My first (vague) memory of Ivanova is at the 1988 Olympics. I remember thinking her skating dress was very pretty. Years later I watched her performances on youtube and I think she was rather avant garde. I liked her style. She was different, not the typical cookie cutter ice princess. I was saddened at the news of her death, horrified when I found it she was murdered. I'll always have a soft spot for Ivanova in my heart.

    Rest in peace Kira-alongside your twin sister.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I had Sumners over Kondrashova in the SP since even though Sumners put her foot down on the double axel and had a very shaky camel spin I thought Kondrashova struggled through almost all the technically elements and technically it was just a fairly weak performance. And artistically I dont find Annas short as interesting as her long which I absolutely loved except for all the inevitable missed jumps and overall tenativeness.

    I put Chin and Zayak over Witt in the LP since I dont like Witts LP choreography that much and I dont think she even gave a great performance. I find it surprising people are that surprised it was so close between Witt and Sumners. Witt also popped several jumps and gave a somewhat marred and unspectacular performance for which she was given inflated scores just as Sumners probably also was. Chin made a very good attempt on a triple flip and Zayak had more 4 successful triples which was the most.
    OK. I think Zayak actually had the most technically ambitious program jump-wise w/ 4 different types of triples [toe, toe walley, sal, loop]: including that split leap-3toe-2toe-2toe, a 3loop in the 2d half of the program, and entrances to most of her jumps. Witt and Sumners only had 2 different types. Chin 3 different types. I also think Zayak is the one skater who has held up really well over time, especially with the advent of CoP for which she would've been the best in this group

  17. #57

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    Witt's "dazzle"/beauty compensated for some of her faults, I suspect; at least in the minds of some.

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by pollyanna View Post
    Scotvold is such a butthead. He didn't even mention that Elaine competed fabulous 3 salchows and 3 loops. Very few ladies of that era had jumps more difficult than 3 toes and 3 salchows. At least Evy acknowledged that Elaine could perform those 3 toes from all sorts of different entrances. How many other ladies then could complete 2 axel-3toes or 2 lutz-3 toes? I repeat, he's a butthead.
    I wouldn't make too much of Scotvold's opinion of Zayak based on that clip, considering that it was obviously edited from a much longer interview. Who knows what else he said about her or anyone else? That's just the quote the producers chose to use.

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by skatesindreams View Post
    Witt's "dazzle"/beauty compensated for some of her faults, I suspect; at least in the minds of some.
    Oh, absolutely, even though, at that time, she had genuine solid elements. Also, let's remember that this was still at the height of the 'Cold War' and there was an unspoken feeling among officials that, even if all things were equal, a lady from the Socialist Orbit should take home the gold. The West already had two skating golds (Scott Hamilton and Torvill/Dean). The East had only Pairs (Valova/Vasiliev). Witt evened things out with her win in the Ladies.

    Had there been Code of Points then, it may have been different. Elaine would definitely have been higher in the SP and LP segments.
    Dick Button Historical Quote of the Month: "Good for you, Lucinda Ruh!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    I also think Zayak is the one skater who has held up really well over time, especially with the advent of CoP for which she would've been the best in this group
    Quote Originally Posted by Frau Muller View Post
    Had there been Code of Points then, it may have been different. Elaine would definitely have been higher in the SP and LP segments.
    I think Chin would have benefited from CoP as well. I find it difficult to believe that any judge using CoP would have ranked Chin as low as eighth in PCS for her Short Program, as the Belgian judge did.

    Of course, if CoP had existed, then skaters would have tried to maximize their TES and PCS rather than their placement, and their programs would have been different.

    Here, for everyone's reference, are the judges' marks for the competition:

    Compulsory Figures
    Short Program
    Free Skating

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