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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by skatesindreams View Post
    Witt's "dazzle"/beauty compensated for some of her faults, I suspect; at least in the minds of some.
    I agree, but I also think her 2 lutz-3 toe combination helped a lot. That's one tough combination, and the only other skater I know of that could compete it back then was Zayak, and she did not attempt it here.

    True, gkelly, but I still think he's an arse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pollyanna View Post
    I agree, but I also think her 2 lutz-3 toe combination helped a lot. That's one tough combination, and the only other skater I know of that could compete it back then was Zayak, and she did not attempt it here.

    True, gkelly, but I still think he's an arse.
    Yep, they were the only two. Dubravcic also did it at the 1980 Olympics but by 84 much of her jumping ability had been curtailed through puberty and the Zayak rule.

    That's another reason why I get so annoyed at the likes of Scotvold (yeah and the editors) and so many authors making out that all Zayak had was a triple toe. It was Dubravcic who would do like 5 triple toes in one LP, NOT Elaine and while Elaine did 4 at 1982 Worlds she did them from different entrances and transitions and in very difficult combos (3t walley steps 3twalley, 2z/3t, 2 splits into triple toe) while Dubravcic did them the same way all the way through. elaine actually had very balanced technical programs and you never got the impression she was doing the same element over and over. Before youtube, all you ever heard from documentaries and books was this same story and how that rule came about because Elaine supposedly kept doing the same triple jump all the time. Even as late as 1995, Christine Brennan told the world that Elaine was such a success in her comeback because hse landed a triple loop as an adult - something she couldn't do in her peak years. Erm yep ok love. Hello RESEARCH????

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    Am I the only one who thinks that Elaine deserved better than she received in 1994. too?
    Last edited by skatesindreams; 04-14-2011 at 12:43 AM.

  4. #64
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    The reason Dubravcic hardly got any flak as the true originator of repeating triple toes is she wasnt even relevant enough for most people to care about. Zayak was a name so she was an easier target.

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by skatesindreams View Post
    Witt's "dazzle"/beauty compensated for some of her faults, I suspect; at least in the minds of some.
    We had a commentator in Australia, Mike Gibson, who was covering the 84 Worlds and 88 Olympics. He made a number of comments in relation to Witt, many of them very sexist. He even tried to make out the reason why Witt beat Debi Thomas in the SP in 88 was due to the fact that Witt was better looking than Debi. He was saying this to Torvill and Dean who were commentating with him.

    The 84 Worlds coverage his co-commetator is a coach I know and she was kind of sitting their smiling at his comments whilst he was practially jerking himself off watching her.

    When I get some time one day, I am going to do a compilation of his comments and post them on Youtube.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by floskate View Post
    Yep, they were the only two. Dubravcic also did it at the 1980 Olympics but by 84 much of her jumping ability had been curtailed through puberty and the Zayak rule.

    That's another reason why I get so annoyed at the likes of Scotvold (yeah and the editors) and so many authors making out that all Zayak had was a triple toe. It was Dubravcic who would do like 5 triple toes in one LP, NOT Elaine and while Elaine did 4 at 1982 Worlds she did them from different entrances and transitions and in very difficult combos (3t walley steps 3twalley, 2z/3t, 2 splits into triple toe) while Dubravcic did them the same way all the way through. elaine actually had very balanced technical programs and you never got the impression she was doing the same element over and over. Before youtube, all you ever heard from documentaries and books was this same story and how that rule came about because Elaine supposedly kept doing the same triple jump all the time. Even as late as 1995, Christine Brennan told the world that Elaine was such a success in her comeback because hse landed a triple loop as an adult - something she couldn't do in her peak years. Erm yep ok love. Hello RESEARCH????
    Enjoying all the Elaine Love

    Elaine did the 3loop cleanly at '84 Olys and '84 Worlds that I know of...

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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    Enjoying all the Elaine Love

    Elaine did the 3loop cleanly at '84 Olys and '84 Worlds that I know of...
    Elaine had a triple loop right from the get go at Worlds in 1980. Not that Brennan bothered to check that up or anything. Why let a little matter of a few videos get in the way of your hyperbole?

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    Questions I had that anyone can comment on -

    If Elaine hadn't been injured at '83 Worlds, completed the comp and her programs were say, at least as strong as her '83 Nats programs, where would she have ultimately placed - threat for gold? medal? were her '83 Nats programs stronger than Leistner, Vodorezova? would she have been off the podium? She was defending world champ in '83. Would the judges have given her scores a small extra boost that Champions usually get?

    I remember Leistner and Vodorezova had scores in the mid 5's in the LP. I'm sure that Elaine's '83 Nats LP would've beaten those.

    Also would no injury and standing at '83 Worlds have boosted her in the Olympic season of '83 - '84? What influence?

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatesindreams View Post
    Here it is:
    Sumners, Zayak, Witt: (with Scotvold's ire)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0_iCNHIk7k
    Thanks so much for this link; never seen this before, was an interesting watch. I felt a bit sorry for Sumners; 84 was clearly a painful experience she has carried with her.

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    We had a commentator in Australia, Mike Gibson, who was covering the 84 Worlds and 88 Olympics. He made a number of comments in relation to Witt, many of them very sexist. He even tried to make out the reason why Witt beat Debi Thomas in the SP in 88 was due to the fact that Witt was better looking than Debi. He was saying this to Torvill and Dean who were commentating with him.

    The 84 Worlds coverage his co-commetator is a coach I know and she was kind of sitting their smiling at his comments whilst he was practially jerking himself off watching her.

    When I get some time one day, I am going to do a compilation of his comments and post them on Youtube.
    I'd like to hear those; and see T and D's reaction.

    If Elaine hadn't been injured at '83 Worlds, completed the comp and her programs were say, at least as strong as her '83 Nats programs, where would she have ultimately placed - threat for gold? medal? were her '83 Nats programs stronger than Leistner, Vodorezova? would she have been off the podium? She was defending world champ in '83. Would the judges have given her scores a small extra boost that Champions usually get?
    Here is: Elaine Zayak - 1983 U.S. Figure Skating Championships, LP
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6QUaaxMC70

    Dick and Peggy's comments give one the idea that TPTB had already decided to "push" Rosalynn, instead of Elaine.
    Last edited by skatesindreams; 04-14-2011 at 03:13 PM. Reason: to add infornation

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loves_Shizuka View Post
    Thanks so much for this link; never seen this before, was an interesting watch. I felt a bit sorry for Sumners; 84 was clearly a painful experience she has carried with her.
    What drama!!

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatesindreams View Post
    I'd like to hear those; and see T and D's reaction.



    Here is: Elaine Zayak - 1983 U.S. Figure Skating Championships, LP
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6QUaaxMC70

    Dick and Peggy's comments give one the idea that TPTB had already decided to "push" Rosalynn, instead of Elaine.
    Yeah. The Roz v. Elaine situation was unique. Since then, I don't believe I've ever heard Dick & Peggy sing the praises of one skater at the US national level, then mostly diss her main challenger [but who knows]. Jeez. Sarah Hughes had issues as a skater and Peggy wouldn't shut up about how wonderful she was. Why did Elaine elicit so much disrespect?

    Elaine had half of a foot from a lawn mower accident, didn't have a politically well-connected coach [as discussed in this book I read 'Little Girls in pretty Boxes' - something like that], yet was still '79 World Jr. Champ, '80 US Olympic alternate, '81 Natl. Champ, '81 World Silver Medalist, '82 World Champ, '84 World Bronze Medalist, had the Zayak rule named after her. She probably would've medalled in '83 but for injury, so she would've been on the Worlds podium from '81 - '84 each time, and that beats Roz's or Tiffany's records

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by skatesindreams View Post
    Here is: Elaine Zayak - 1983 U.S. Figure Skating Championships, LP
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6QUaaxMC70

    Dick and Peggy's comments give one the idea that TPTB had already decided to "push" Rosalynn, instead of Elaine.
    Very interesting. So Roz had 3 triples, a fall, and very weak spins, yet won the LP. Elaine had 6 triples, one of which was a touch down, and one of which was a loop, spins that were superior to Roz's, yet scored lower. I wonder who paid off those judges?

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loves_Shizuka View Post
    Thanks so much for this link; never seen this before, was an interesting watch. I felt a bit sorry for Sumners; 84 was clearly a painful experience she has carried with her.
    I loved "Fire on Ice," have it on videotape, but it was painful to watch that again. Roz's coach should still get a big thump on the head for the way she acted during the Olympics. Yes, Roz is responsible for her own emotions, but her coach did everything to bring her down and nothing to bring her back up after the short program. Very, very sad.

    I also remember reading somewhere (I think it may have been "Little Girls in Pretty Boxes") that Elaine wanted to quit amateur skating after her World's win, but her coaches and parents pushed her to stay in the sport through the Olympics. She gained some weight, and her father took away her car and also ordered the rink cafe to sell her nothing but coffee, no food. She was miserable, and then the injury, and then we know the rest. Anyone else recall this? Elaine was a wonderful skater, I've met her as a coach, she is just delightful. She will always be the most memorable ladies skater we had during that time period in my book.
    "Once you've skated together long enough, and you're really good friends, you can close your eyes, put your hand out and she's right there." Joe Dolkiewicz, 2011 US Novice Pairs Bronze Medalist

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    Quote Originally Posted by pollyanna View Post
    Very interesting. So Roz had 3 triples, a fall, and very weak spins, yet won the LP. Elaine had 6 triples, one of which was a touch down, and one of which was a loop, spins that were superior to Roz's, yet scored lower. I wonder who paid off those judges?
    I've always wondered what occured for the USFSA to just drop Zayak like a hot potato. Maybe it was the fact that she could never be consistent in figures because of her childhood injury? Her placement in figures depended on which foot was drawn and if it was the wrong one for Elaine, no amount of politiking could save her. Plus Chin was in the wings and trying triple flips and triple axels in practice so maybe they thought they didn't need Zayak? I also wonder what influence, if any, the ABC team and Dick and Peggy inparticular had on the situation. All that said, there was absolutely no excuse for Elaine not winning the LP at this event. Utterly ridiculous result. I do love her slow sections to almost all her amatuer programs. They're a study in how to place great elements to really highlight the music. Love it

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    Sarah Hughes had issues as a skater and Peggy wouldn't shut up about how wonderful she was. Why did Elaine elicit so much disrespect?
    Aside from the obvious flip and flutz techniques that Sarah had, Sarah was a much more elegant skater than Elaine was. I liked Elaine, but IMO there was a heaviness to her skating and a lack of body awareness.

  17. #77
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    Would Witt have been so successful if she was butt-ugly?

    (or at least less supposedly stunning...)

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    Her looks and flirtatious manner certainly didn't hurt her, but Katarina's secret weapon was her competitiveness. As outlined in Fire and Ice - go to youtube and watch the followup to the earlier clip, part 7 covers the Kat/Debi rivalry - she wasn't the greatest skater ever, but she definitely was and remains the greatest COMPETITOR of all the ladies in history. She was supremely confident, and she knew exactly how to psych out her fellow competitors and make them nervous and unsure of themselves (despite the fact that she always played innocent and claimed none of her actions were deliberate). She would make up her own little routines to other skaters' music during practices, cut people off, and flirt with the reporters present to get all the attention for herself. I still remember her positioning herself by the boards after she skated her short program in Calgary in 1988 with her arms crossed, GLARING at Debi Thomas the entire time she skated her short.

    Dick Button once commented that Kat was an absolutely beautiful woman, but he "couldn't recall one memorable thing she did on the ice." That may sound harsh, but she frequently did skate less technically difficult programs than her competitors and often substituted flirtatiousness for actual skating; however, she also skated with power and confidence and rarely made mistakes. Compare that to both Debi and Roz who essentially gave up in their Olympic long programs by psyching themselves out (with a little help in the psych-out arena from Kat).
    Last edited by Yazmeen; 04-14-2011 at 07:48 PM.
    "Once you've skated together long enough, and you're really good friends, you can close your eyes, put your hand out and she's right there." Joe Dolkiewicz, 2011 US Novice Pairs Bronze Medalist

  19. #79
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    I cant think of any event or medal Witt won she probably didnt deserve to other than her 87 NHK gold over Ito. Well some think she didnt deserve to win the 88 Worlds too but I am not sure who else did, maybe Manley.

    I also dont think the judges even cared about spins as a factor in scoring in the 80s.

    On another note it is amazing how much better Sumners got in figures placings in a year as well. She was 11th in figures at the 82 Worlds and 1st in 83.

  20. #80
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    Witt's figures placing were crazy as well - '83 Worlds - 8th, '84 Worlds - 1st

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