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  1. #21

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    Here are the placements for the top 13:

    1) Witt 3-1-1 = 3.2
    2) Sumners 1-5-2 = 4.6
    3) Ivanova 5-3-5 = 9.2
    4) Chin 12-2-3 = 11.0
    5) Kondrashova 7-4-6 = 11.8
    6) Zayak 13-6-4 = 14.2
    7) Ruben 6-11-7 = 15.0
    8) Vodorezova 2-8-11 = 15.4
    9) Leistner 9-10-8 = 17.4
    10) Dubravcic 8-9-9 = 17.4
    11) Cariboni 4-14-12 = 20.0
    12) Thomson 10-12-10 = 20.8
    13) Manley 16-7-13 = 25.4

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by pollyanna View Post
    Here are the placements for the top 13:

    1) Witt 3-1-1 = 3.2
    2) Sumners 1-5-2 = 4.6
    3) Ivanova 5-3-5 = 9.2
    4) Chin 12-2-3 = 11.0
    5) Kondrashova 7-4-6 = 11.8
    6) Zayak 13-6-4 = 14.2
    7) Ruben 6-11-7 = 15.0
    8) Vodorezova 2-8-11 = 15.4
    9) Leistner 9-10-8 = 17.4
    10) Dubravcic 8-9-9 = 17.4
    11) Cariboni 4-14-12 = 20.0
    12) Thomson 10-12-10 = 20.8
    13) Manley 16-7-13 = 25.4
    Wow. Thanks. These are interesting!

    A couple of observations -

    1) Zayak was 13th after the figures. That's quite a drop compared to '81 worlds - 7th; '82 - 4th; '83 - 9th [even w/ a stress fracture and ahead of Chin there I think]. I wonder if she was dumped on the intl. stage due to the fact that Roz and Tiffany were considered #1 and #2 in the US and the USFSA was just not promoting her -or - was she just particularly bad in '84? Then, I feel Elaine was grossly underscored in the SP

    2) I wonder if either Leistner or Ruben from FRG would've had the ability to wedge themselves between Ivanova/Kondrashova and Chin/Zayak and this may have helped either Chin or Zayak [based on my notes in #1] to the bronze medal. Ruben did get silver at '84 Euros behind Witt. I've never seen vids of her. Was she a superior skater to either Ivanova or Kondrashova? I do remember Leistner bombing the SP here in '84. I think she could've tangled the standings enough to push either one of the Americans to the Bronze IF she had performed well...

  3. #23

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    Here are:

    Claudia Leistner (FRG) - 1984 Sarajevo Ladies' Long Program
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZc4xBvnFXA

    Manuela Ruben (FRG) - 1984 Sarajevo Ladies' Long Program
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qCr1zQB7T4

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatesindreams View Post
    Here is:

    Manuela Ruben (FRG) - 1984 Sarajevo Ladies' Long Program
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qCr1zQB7T4
    Thanks, I remember at the time seeing portions of this program on NBC, and thinking that she did have some spark, but I'll have to view this more carefully at home.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    1) Zayak was 13th after the figures. That's quite a drop compared to '81 worlds - 7th; '82 - 4th; '83 - 9th [even w/ a stress fracture and ahead of Chin there I think]. I wonder if she was dumped on the intl. stage due to the fact that Roz and Tiffany were considered #1 and #2 in the US and the USFSA was just not promoting her -or - was she just particularly bad in '84?
    I don't think Elaine competed at any GP events at all until Nationals in 84, and she showed up at Nationals in awful conditions. (That move where she grabbed the side of the barrier and high kicked both her legs into the air was cringe-inducing and done to "Eyes of The Tiger" no less.) I also think that back in those days, it was very important that the U.S. gold medal favorite came into the games as THE National Champion.

    Elaine definitely improved by the time Sarejevo rolled around, but it was too late in the eyes of the international judges. Competing in some of the pre Olympics events would've helped her, if she had done well in them.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    I don't think Elaine competed at any GP events at all until Nationals in 84, and she showed up at Nationals in awful conditions. (That move where she grabbed the side of the barrier and high kicked both her legs into the air was cringe-inducing and done to "Eyes of The Tiger" no less.) I also think that back in those days, it was very important that the U.S. gold medal favorite came into the games as THE National Champion.

    Elaine definitely improved by the time Sarejevo rolled around, but it was too late in the eyes of the international judges. Competing in some of the pre Olympics events would've helped her, if she had done well in them.
    LOL. I remember that - grabbing the side barrier. I was like WTF.

    Her split leap-3toe-2toe-2toe combination would've been a good CoP move nowadays. She probably had the most ambitious program at Sarajevo, as she went for 5 triples including a 3loop in the 2d half of the program, but I always get my back up for her because I always felt like she was treated like dirt by USFSA, judges, even commentators like Dick and Peggy.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    LOL. I remember that - grabbing the side barrier. I was like WTF.
    .....
    This was her "Bonaly Moment" (although Bonaly's backflip at Olys came later - in 1998). Elaine was basically saying F*** U to the judges, we all felt. USFS and int'l judges preferred the more "princessy" Roz, even though neither Roz nor Elaine came from a "country club" background. It was all image and packaging in those days. Olympic, you are correct in your thinking, although, in fairness, Dick Button was admiring of Elaine's athletics. He went nuts for her entrances into spins, for example. It was PEGGY who went on and on about Roz being so pweety and elegant, "just like a lady should be."
    Last edited by Frau Muller; 04-11-2011 at 08:37 PM.
    Dick Button Historical Quote of the Month: "Good for you, Lucinda Ruh!"

  8. #28

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    I wanted to see that barrier move!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkrfexVFctI

    3:16

    I do wonder sometimes why the boards aren't used more as part of choreo. She did that during her program so she wasn't skating but at the begining of a program the only thing that comes to mind immediately was Kavaguti and Smirnov starting a program at the boards instead of the middle of the ice.

    It is kind of unfortunate how good Chin was in the SP and LP but the figures kept her back. She was young and that was where years and years helped people out but the SP and LP were good for younger jumpers like her.

    What if Sumners had not placed fifth in the SP?

  9. #29
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    LOL! I don't think the barrier move is that bad. Is this an illegal move?

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    I wanted to see that barrier move!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkrfexVFctI

    3:16
    LOVE IT.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frau Muller View Post
    This was her "Bonaly Moment" (although Bonaly's backflip at Olys came later - in 1998). Elaine was basically saying F*** U to the judges, we all felt. USFS and int'l judges preferred the more "princessy" Roz, even though neither Roz nor Elaine came from a "country club" background. It was all image and packaging in those days. Olympic, you are correct in your thinking, although, in fairness, Dick Button was admiring of Elaine's athletics. He went nuts for her entrances into spins, for example. It was PEGGY who went on and on about Roz being so pweety and elegant, "just like a lady should be."
    Yeah. I guess Peggy was the one who snarked on Elaine the more of the two. I mean, C'mon, Elaine was skating with half of a foot and still became a world champ, natl. champ, 3-time world medalist, Olympian, all the time managed to stay cheerful on the ice. What's not to love?

    BTW, while watching the Tiffany Chin '84 Olympic LP youtube clip, I was over the US commentators talking about Tiffany Chin being the '88 Olympic Champ. It was a little presumptuous...

    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    ...What if Sumners had not placed fifth in the SP?
    Do you mean had she not made the mistakes and skated cleanly? Either 2d or 1st in the SP obviously. I was just now ready to anoint her SP winner and subsequently the Olympic champ, but I think Witt also beat her in the SP in '83, too, right? I'm not sure.

    Even if she'd been 2d in the SP, Roz would've still led, but Witt would've pulled closer and had the factored placements to win overall if she could've beat Roz in the LP.

    If Roz won the SP, she would've put some daylight between herself and Witt, so she could've been 2d in the LP and won the Gold.
    Last edited by olympic; 04-11-2011 at 10:19 PM.

  12. #32

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    Yeah I was just thinking what if she had been higher. Closer to gold but still getting silver or actually winning gold.

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    Rueben was definitely not a superior skater to Ivanova and Kondrashova, and she was just as inconsistent but with less ability. I am pretty stunned she was able to get silver at the 84 Europeans, I imagine she had one of her best competitions and the Russian girls both a very poor one. Her Linda Fratianne ripoff Carmen with the exact same music cuts and choreography was especialy bad. Leistner was in horrible shape for the 84 Olympics and was never going to factor in anything. If she had been in her 82 and 83 shape she could have been very much a factor.

    I guess Voderezova and Leistner were the most likely to maybe help Chin by beating Ivanova and Kondrashova. Actually Voderezova was even higher in figures than Ivanova and Kondrashova though so that wouldnt have helped Chin, it would have just helped herself. Maybe someone like Kay Thomson if she had her best performances ever could have helped.

    If Sumners had won the SP over Witt she would have all but locked up the gold under the factored scoring system. I am not sure if she would have beaten Witt in the SP or not even clean though.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by longingfornia View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLS0nUK_syA
    Katarina Witt
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k4cBjtJ2WI
    Rosalynn Sumners
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDw0_ZpjU8Q
    Kira Ivanova
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLAEGPYjEqM
    Tiffany Chin
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h17MwRSUjyQ
    Anna Kondrashova
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MBbng2Mzj8
    Elaine Zayak

    My Thoughts after watching these programs is that Ros's long is over marked. I do agree with Kat winning overall though.

    Thoughts
    I agree with Katerina winning.. she was the skater I became a fan of.. she was just such a lovely balance of artistry, athleticism and beauty.. had something very special..
    Thanks to PI .. I discovered I'm actually a Nontheist

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  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    Yeah. I guess Peggy was the one who snarked on Elaine the more of the two. I mean, C'mon, Elaine was skating with half of a foot and still became a world champ, natl. champ, 3-time world medalist, Olympian, all the time managed to stay cheerful on the ice. What's not to love?
    My thoughts exactly. I really loved her attitude.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    Zayak was 13th after the figures. That's quite a drop compared to '81 worlds - 7th; '82 - 4th; '83 - 9th [even w/ a stress fracture and ahead of Chin there I think]. I wonder if she was dumped on the intl. stage due to the fact that Roz and Tiffany were considered #1 and #2 in the US and the USFSA was just not promoting her -or - was she just particularly bad in '84?
    As you know, when Zayak was an infant, she lost part of her left foot in an accident. The injury particularly effected her ability to do certain figures, so her scores in the Compulsories varied considerably depending on what figures were drawn at any particular competition.

  17. #37
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    I find that I quite enjoy Elaine Zayak. Even her interviews are fantastic. Mirai Nagasu sort of reminds me of Elaine Zayak when the talk to her due to her freshness.

    Even though Roz lost the gold in her LP, I really can't help but enjoy her skating. I found it be quite nice to be honest.
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    As you know, when Zayak was an infant, she lost part of her left foot in an accident. The injury particularly effected her ability to do certain figures, so her scores in the Compulsories varied considerably depending on what figures were drawn at any particular competition.
    IINM she had trouble with inside edges so if the first figure was an inside rocker or counter (and I think it was in Sarajevo though I'm not completely sure) that's 9 large circles all on an inside edge and she would be in really bad condition going into the next two (which are 50/50 inside and outside edges)

    I remember a news story at the time that indicated she knew full well that she had done very poorly in the figures at Sarajevo.

    I do think she was completely undermarked in the SP and LP though (I'd have her in the top 2 in both probably).

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    As you know, when Zayak was an infant, she lost part of her left foot in an accident. The injury particularly effected her ability to do certain figures, so her scores in the Compulsories varied considerably depending on what figures were drawn at any particular competition.
    Here's the video where the injury; and her adjustment to it, are discussed:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3Eqk6PoS1M

    She never used it as an excuse; or to elicit sympathy.

  20. #40

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    If Roz had won the SP and Kat placed 2nd in SP, Roz would have won gold 3.0 to 3.6 even with Kat winning the LP. If Roz had placed 2nd in the SP, Kat would have won 3.2 to 3.4.

    At 1983 Worlds, Kat won the SP and Roz placed 4th. Leistner and Vodorezova were 2nd and 3rd, respectively.

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