I Wonder...? Could Katherine of Aragon Have Been...

[IceAlisa]

I had heard that the ancient Romans used to binge and purge at their banquets.

Yes, I've heard it too. They did it so that once they get full, they could purge and start eating/drinking all over again.

Also the upper class women women in earlier times (Medici court, French courts,) used to pride themselves on having 10 and 14 inch waists (with the help of corsets) so I would bet they were weight obsessed as well.

This I haven't heard. Where is your information coming from?

[DarrellH]

I had always thought that Henry was STD riddled. With all the affairs he had during his marriage to Catherine, he picked up a few unwanted diseases. If he passed these on to his wives, they could have had one or two children before each was too infected. I assumed the passing on of STDs inhibited the fertility of the wives.

[IceAlisa]

We've had a lively discussion once before about Henry possibly having had syphilis.

[Jenny]

I had always thought that Henry was STD riddled. With all the affairs he had during his marriage to Catherine, he picked up a few unwanted diseases. If he passed these on to his wives, they could have had one or two children before each was too infected. I assumed the passing on of STDs inhibited the fertility of the wives.

Just did a little rechecking around the internet, and it appears that was likely not the case. Several articles point out that syphilis was well known at the time, and would have been recorded by Henry's doctors, along with the treatments of the day. His wives were all able to bear children, and there's no evidence that any of his surviving children had symptoms of STDs.

Further, it's generally agreed that Henry was faithful for the first half of his marriage to Catherine, which lasted 20 years, and only two mistresses are actually documented. Of course there could be many more, but given the scrutiny on his life you'd think more of them would have turned up by now.

[sk8er1964]

Further, it's generally agreed that Henry was faithful for the first half of his marriage to Catherine, which lasted 20 years, and only two mistresses are actually documented. Of course there could be many more, but given the scrutiny on his life you'd think more of them would have turned up by now.

He had many more, most of whom were stars of historical romance novels.

Seriously, it is pretty well known how pious Catherine was, so the fasting thing is an interesting angle. Childbearing was such a dicey thing back then, though, it's hard to say if it had an effect on her.

[danceronice]

10"? I'd like a source on that, too. Unless women were MUCH smaller overall than they are today, that's bordering on physically impossible. I can take four or five inches off my waist (natural waist, beneath the floating rib) with a late 19th-century replica compression corset without losing too much beyond the ability to take DEEP breaths or bend too far, and with some training from an early age I *might* have been able to go one or two more, but unless you were STARTING from a natural waist of only 16-17" to begin with, 10" around is incredibly tiny. That's only four inches wider than my WRIST.

[Bunny Hop]

[*]Edward - died age 15, was sickly from childhood

The pedant in me needs to point out that this is a popular misconception. There is actually very little evidence that Edward was a sickly child. Certainly, his last years were problematic, but it's generally accepted now that he was pretty healthy as an infant and young boy.

[GaPeach]

Just did a little rechecking around the internet, and it appears that was likely not the case. Several articles point out that syphilis was well known at the time, and would have been recorded by Henry's doctors, along with the treatments of the day. His wives were all able to bear children, and there's no evidence that any of his surviving children had symptoms of STDs.

Further, it's generally agreed that Henry was faithful for the first half of his marriage to Catherine, which lasted 20 years, and only two mistresses are actually documented. Of course there could be many more, but given the scrutiny on his life you'd think more of them would have turned up by now.

But one of his mistresses had been very active in the French court, that was riddled with STDs.

On the flipside: K.H had an old man with medical issues, possibly problem in the bedroom. K.P was his nursemaid. So I don't think children were possible.

Interesting about Catherine-I can see her fasting like mad for religious purposes.

[Jenny]

The pedant in me needs to point out that this is a popular misconception. There is actually very little evidence that Edward was a sickly child. Certainly, his last years were problematic, but it's generally accepted now that he was pretty healthy as an infant and young boy.

Yes you are right - after I posted that and when I was looking at Henry's medical history, I saw many references to Edward being born a healthy child.

[Tinami Amori]

I Wonder...? Could Katherine of Aragon Have Been... Anorexic?

Neah……. She was a rabid Catholic….. .

Devoted and fanatical Spanish Catholics often went further than fasting and abstaining from meat and other foods on the days prescribed by the Canons.

They often limited their food intake during several days in every week of the year to service penance for their sins, to cleanse the soul and to show willpower and endurance and solidarity with the struggles of Christ.

[aliceanne]

Yes, I've heard it too. They did it so that once they get full, they could purge and start eating/drinking all over again.


This I haven't heard. Where is your information coming from?

Well it has been commonly circulated that Catherine de Medici required the laides of the French court in the 1500's to maintain a 13" waist, here is one website http://www.web-books.com/Classics/ON.../039MB577.html Whether it is true or an exaggeration the point is that upper class women valued slim figures. Of course too, people were of smaller stature in earlier centuries. I can't remember who supposedly had the 10 inch waist, but if I find it I'll add it.

I would guess that Catherine's fasting was due to fanatic Catholicism (given her daughter Mary's fanaticism when she came to the throne in England), but it didn't hurt that her peers valued and respected a slim figure.

[AnnieBgood]

Catherine's weight might have been a contributing factor to infertility. Women lose their periods if they get too thin.

Wouldn't be surprised if the infertility of Henry's other wives was caused by his philandering. The man had some scary sickness' by the end of his life.

[danceronice]

13" is possible but at the far end of feasible unless the woman is already very, very slight. And it's not necessarily "slimming" per se. Everything a compression corset pushes around has to go SOMEWHERE. The most extreme trend in the 19th century versions you had a tiny waist with quite a bit above and below. (Of course they, and the earlier "Scarlet O'Hara" and her 18" waist trend, compress all the way around. Late 18th century stays are more like wearing a front-to-back brace.)

Yeah, I've worn them. The stays are actually nice for doing heavy lifting housework (like open-fire cooking.) You can't slouch or lift cast iron pots while bending wrong. The corsets could be worse and aren't as horrible as Hollywood leads you to believe--not that much worse than a 1950s girdle setup.

[nerdycool]

But Catherine wasn't necessarily infertile. She conceived pretty easily, which means that her cycles were fairly consistent. Her problem was that most of her children weren't carried to term. Mary was, and perhaps the two baby Henrys. But the other 3 were for sure premature... the last was born at 32 weeks, and died within days. I guess one could still call that infertility, but from all reports during her pregnancies, she didn't raise any concerns about her weight.

And there is no proof Henry had any STD's. It would have been noted in his physician's logs, and there is no such notation. Had he passed any STD's on to his wives, it would have been noted in the Queen's physician's logs as well.

[AnnieBgood]

The King may not have had stds, but he did have a lot of sickness' that were the reason for his demise. His physician's were known to guild the lily about his health and prowess. I've seen some excerpts that praise his virility, manly calves, and etc..

[Tinami Amori]

I would guess that Catherine's fasting was due to fanatic Catholicism (given her daughter Mary's fanaticism when she came to the throne in England), but it didn't hurt that her peers valued and respected a slim figure.

Curves were in fashion back then..... symbols of fertility....

In Tudor times the standards of beauty were not a slender woman, but a busty, curvy, light hair, light skin, blue eyes, rosy plump milky cheeks, and every other attribute of a “healthy mother to a herd of healthy sons”.

The objectors to Anne Boleyn always pointed out that she is “too thin, her breasts are too small, and skin/hair too dark to be a good mother to the future king”.

In Spain, at the time, the “curves of the future wife and mother of your sons” were even more important since Spain had the "arab/north african influences"......

[Jenny]

The King may not have had stds, but he did have a lot of sickness' that were the reason for his demise. His physician's were known to guild the lily about his health and prowess. I've seen some excerpts that praise his virility, manly calves, and etc..

I believe that in his youth and younger adulthood, those descriptions were true. He was very athletic - playing tennis, riding, jousting and dancing often, so it stands to reason that he would have been in good physical shape.

It was only at age 45 in 1536 that things started to go downhill - he was in a severe jousting accident that knocked him out for a time, and suffered a serious leg injury that never healed. His pain and inability to participate fully in sports and dancing led to his weight gain (not to mention the festering sore) and likely diabetes and heart trouble.

From what I can tell, other than the obvious flattery and refusal to mention the prospect of death for fear of treason, court physicians of the time were very thorough in their records. Syphillis was well known at the time, and treated openly - and yet Henry's medical records contain no reference to the known treatments of the time. Similarly, Henry's wives and his surviving children have no recorded symptoms or treatments of STDs.

There's so much focus on Henry's six wives and his physical decline in the last 10 years of his life that history seems to have forgotten quite a bit about him.

[attyfan]

... Wouldn't be surprised if the infertility of Henry's other wives was caused by his philandering. The man had some scary sickness' by the end of his life.

What infertility of Henry's other wives? He had children by 3 of them; one more (Catherine Parr) had a child as soon as she was married to a young man (Thomas Seymour; her husbands before Henry were also elderly). Anne of Cleves and Catherine Howard never had the chance to show whether or not they could have children.

[aliceanne]

Curves were in fashion back then..... symbols of fertility....

In Tudor times the standards of beauty were not a slender woman, but a busty, curvy, light hair, light skin, blue eyes, rosy plump milky cheeks, and every other attribute of a “healthy mother to a herd of healthy sons”.

The objectors to Anne Boleyn always pointed out that she is “too thin, her breasts are too small, and skin/hair too dark to be a good mother to the future king”.

In Spain, at the time, the “curves of the future wife and mother of your sons” were even more important since Spain had the "arab/north african influences"......

That could be, I don't know, all I've seen of Henry's wives are modern actresses and Madame Tussaud's

With all the clothes they wore you could hide a lot of figure faults so why worry

[AnnieBgood]

What infertility of Henry's other wives? He had children by 3 of them; one more (Catherine Parr) had a child as soon as she was married to a young man (Thomas Seymour; her husbands before Henry were also elderly). Anne of Cleves and Catherine Howard never had the chance to show whether or not they could have children.

Good point, but didn't most married couples of that time have at least a handful of children? The man had to keep trying and trying just to get 2 daughters and a sickly son.