View Poll Results: Who has been the best since Katarina Witt retired

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  • Mao Asada

    28 6.88%
  • Oksana Baiul

    1 0.25%
  • Midori Ito

    18 4.42%
  • Michelle Kwan

    176 43.24%
  • Tara Lipinski

    2 0.49%
  • Irina Slutskaya

    17 4.18%
  • Kristi Yamaguchi

    11 2.70%
  • Kim Yu Na

    143 35.14%
  • Sasha Cohen

    2 0.49%
  • Shizuka Arakawa

    7 1.72%
  • Sarah Hughes

    1 0.25%
  • Other

    1 0.25%
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  1. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by RumbleFish View Post
    And when did I say transitioning from inverted camel into a sit position alone gurantee a level 4?
    I didn't say anything about "guarantee" in my post and neither did you. In the post I quoted, you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by RumbleFish View Post
    I've seen videos of roller skaters doing inverse camel spins, but they don't have to do it on edges like figure skaters nor do they change directly into sit positions to get a level 4.
    And I pointed out that changing directly from an inverse camel into a sit does not get you a level 4 (your words exactly), nor in fact do you even hit one bullet for an additional boost to your level. The reason I asked is because level 4 and sit spin are completely irrelevant in a discussion about the positioning on an inverse camel spin.
    Last edited by antmanb; 03-30-2011 at 01:49 PM.

  2. #142
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    Levels aside (who cares really) I guess, in short, you don't like Yu-Na's inverted camel, am I right?

  3. #143
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    The poll results look pretty reasonable so far but I'm a bit surprised that so few votes have gone to skaters other than Michelle and Yuna, I'm sure the other skaters must have their fan bases too.
    Last edited by jatale; 03-30-2011 at 06:33 PM.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtherlore View Post
    Levels aside (who cares really) I guess, in short, you don't like Yu-Na's inverted camel, am I right?
    You hit the nail right on the head IMO.
    Or perhaps the poster doesn't like Yuna's skating in general but doesn't have the balls to say it.
    Last edited by RumbleFish; 03-30-2011 at 02:56 PM.

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumbleFish View Post
    You hit the nail right on the head IMO.
    Or perhaps the poster doesn't like Yuna's skating in general but doesn't have the balls to say it.
    So if the poster doesn't agree with you guys(yuna bots or whatever you are), then she or he automatically doesn't like Yuna's skating??

  6. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtherlore View Post
    Levels aside (who cares really) I guess, in short, you don't like Yu-Na's inverted camel, am I right?
    Who really cares indeed - that's more or less the point of my post. Neither levels nor sit spins have anything to do with inverted camels, so why did Rumblefish think they were relevant?

    I think Yuna's position is brilliant and very few people in the world achieve a good position. Several of those people in the world achieve the good position on roller skates and one person achieves a good position on figure skates. Pointing out irrelevant facts does not lessen what those on roller skates achieve IMO.

    My favourite inverted camel position of all time was Christina Czako's in her Adams Family LP. But that was BYK so yo've probably never heard of her
    Last edited by antmanb; 03-30-2011 at 05:16 PM.

  7. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    ...
    Kim I believe lost only 3 times the last 3 seasons. She was virtually unbeatable most of the time, often winning by huge point margins. The only 3 season span Kwan lost only 3 times was 97-98 to 99-2000 but she didnt even compete regularly like Kim did, and had to come from behind to win Nationals and Worlds both in 2000.
    Actually, Michelle did compete regularly in the '97/'98 and '99/'00 seasons, skipping the GP only in the '98/'99 season. Furthermore, I think the ability to "come from behind" is a reason why Michelle was such a strong competitor, if not dominant.

    I'm not sure, though, if "dominanting" is the same as "always winning". Michelle, I think, is such a dominant skater because she was at the top -- a serious contender for gold, as well as a medalist -- in every event for almost a decade, even if she didn't win them all. She was the target at whom everyone else aimed their best ... and when she lost, it would be to some of the most technically advanced programs ever in the ladies event. Nothing (except a torn hip) could keep Michelle off the podium -- not illness (at Worlds '99), broken boots (Worlds '01), or streakers (Worlds, '04). Yu-Na may equal, or even surpass, this record, but she hasn't been competing long enough yet.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by attyfan View Post
    and when she lost, it would be to some of the most technically advanced programs ever in the ladies event.
    I agree with alot of what you said but I dont neccessarily agree with this. When Kwan lost it was usually since she beat herself with jump problems and it often wasnt too someone who was spectacular or turning in historic performances.

    96 Centennial on Ice- lost to Slutskaya and Butyrskaya. The 3 women landed 5, 4, and 4 triples each.

    97 U.S Nationals, GP final, Worlds- lost all 3 times to Lipinski. OK Lipinski did do one of hardest programs as far as jump layout ever for ladies, but Kwan beat herself with errors each time, especialy Nationals and GP final.

    98 Olympics- OK here you are definitely right.

    99 Worlds- shockingly lost to Butyrskaya due to a sequence of errors.

    2000 Grand Prix final- OK here you are definitely right.

    2000-2001 season losses to Slutskaya- Honestly I dont remember Slutskaya skating spectacularly in any of her wins over Michelle. She didnt skate a clean long program in any of them, and she never landed a clean triple-triple or more than 1 triple in any of them. Michelle landed 1 less triple each time I believe though, and the judges seemed mostly focused on that.

    2001-2002 season losses to Slutksaya (6 in a row I believe) - similar story to 2000-2001 although at the GP final Kwan was definitely robbed, and Irina did land one triple-triple at Goodwill Games). At 2002 Worlds Irina won with a safe but clean 6 triple effort after Kwan botched her short program, and at the Olympics she beat Kwan with a rather subpar effort after Kwan fell.

    2004 and 2005 Worlds- needless to say alot of problems for Kwan at both events which were the result of her dissapointing placing, as both times she finished directly behind a not so great performance which should have been easily beatable (Cohen in 2004 and Kostner in 2005).

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    2004 and 2005 Worlds- needless to say alot of problems for Kwan at both events which were the result of her dissapointing placing, as both times she finished directly behind a not so great performance which should have been easily beatable (Cohen in 2004 and Kostner in 2005).
    You're right about the placing. Even though Kwan was past her prime, her losses weren't slam-dunks. In actuality, Kwan's results are great for any other skaters (and normal for others), but due to Kwan's dominance at the podium for 10 years, they were seen as failures among the skating fandom.

    In 2004, it was horrible QR and time deduction in the SP that caused to be in such a deficit going into the LP. I know it was the last time 6.0 was being used in a championship so the judges were being a bit lenient with the scoring, but it goes to show that despite all of that Kwan still managed to place second in the LP and was one ordinal away from winning the LP with only 5 triples. Of course based on technical merit alone, Kwan shouldn't have been close to Arakawa (that said, although I much prefer Arakawa's 2004 Turandot to her 2006 one, I preferred Kwan's program and skating overall despite it being far from her personal best, so I can see the argument for presentation).

    In 2005, it was the QR and Kwan's inexperience with COP and her rising hip problem that did her in. She still managed to place 3rd in the SP and LP though. Despite what people thought about the COP (at least that particular COP) working against Kwan's strengths, she still managed to be competitive overall.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  10. #150
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    I thought the judging of Worlds 2004 was pretty bad in some ways. Arakawa I thought was held up bigtime in the short but held down bigtime in the long despie that she won it. Her short program was mediocre and should have been 4th or lower. No way should she have been placed over Ando or Kwan. Her long was stupendous though and should have been showered with 6.0s given how the scoring at that years Worlds was, and had straight 1st place ordinals. Kwan's long program was quite good too, but even Cohen being placed over Shizuka by 3 of the 9 counting judges with that lame performance was awful. Kostner's long program was a train wreck and got a 5.9 for technical merit and placed 5th ahead of the European Champion.

    The thing about the 2005 Worlds more than her 4th place showing though was that she was never competitive with Slutskaya or Cohen at all it seemed, as those two seemed to open up a chasm on all the others this year. That was what surprised people the most. Of course those two had the most experience under COP and had tailor made their programs and skating for it.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I thought the judging of Worlds 2004 was pretty bad in some ways. Arakawa I thought was held up bigtime in the short but held down bigtime in the long despie that she won it. Her short program was mediocre and should have been 4th or lower. No way should she have been placed over Ando or Kwan. Her long was stupendous though and should have been showered with 6.0s given how the scoring at that years Worlds was, and had straight 1st place ordinals. Kwan's long program was quite good too, but even Cohen being placed over Shizuka by 3 of the 9 counting judges with that lame performance was awful. Kostner's long program was a train wreck and got a 5.9 for technical merit and placed 5th ahead of the European Champion.

    The thing about the 2005 Worlds more than her 4th place showing though was that she was never competitive with Slutskaya or Cohen at all it seemed, as those two seemed to open up a chasm on all the others this year. That was what surprised people the most. Of course those two had the most experience under COP and had tailor made their programs and skating for it.
    2004 Worlds was the beginning of Kostner being overmarked. Her winning bronze over Kwan at 2005 Worlds was a joke IMO. They were definitely grooming her for a medal for Torino.

    I find it ironic the one time she skated a decent free skate at Worlds (2010, in Torino no less), she was not held up.

  12. #152
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    Re 2004 Worlds - didn't Shiz ur the back-ends of both 3-3s? Perhaps this and the fact she was the 1st skater are the reasons why no 6.0s were thrown out.

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    Re 2004 Worlds - didn't Shiz ur the back-ends of both 3-3s? Perhaps this and the fact she was the 1st skater are the reasons why no 6.0s were thrown out.
    Yes, to me they were underrotated but somehow they were ratified.

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by ks777 View Post
    Yes, to me they were underrotated but somehow they were ratified.
    And that was no slam. If it weren't for the questionable rotations, I'd rank her '04 Worlds performance as the performance of the past decade

  15. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    ... 2004 and 2005 Worlds- needless to say alot of problems for Kwan at both events which were the result of her dissapointing placing, as both times she finished directly behind a not so great performance which should have been easily beatable (Cohen in 2004 and Kostner in 2005).
    At Worlds in 2004, Kwan lost the FS to Arakawa .. who did one of the most technically advanced programs ever done by a lady at Worlds. By 2005, Kwan's hip was shot.

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by attyfan View Post
    At Worlds in 2004, Kwan lost the FS to Arakawa .. who did one of the most technically advanced programs ever done by a lady at Worlds. By 2005, Kwan's hip was shot.
    Kwan could have won the free skate at the 2004 Worlds and she still would have placed only 3rd overall. She lost since she had bombed the qualifying round and not done as well as she would have liked in the short.

  17. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtherlore View Post
    Um.. I wouldn’t say you’re 100% wrong, but I don’t agree here. Ice and roller skating are almost identical? First of all, friction is different, especially when one’s spinning, affording the roller skaters far greater command of certain positions. And you cannot compare roller skating edges to ice skating edges. I wouldn’t put Jordan up against Bolt as to who could run faster down the lane. It would be fairer to compare Yu-Na’s crafts with those of other (figure) skaters.
    Comparing basketball to running is not the same as comparing someone who does axels, toe loops, flips, lutz, camel spins, sit spins, same compulsory dances, pairs skating, school figures etc... You don't think these are similar? I'm so glad Yuna does the invert, as now more ice people will be trying to perfect it. That's called progress. There have been a few over the years on ice who have had great (almost) inverts, Yuna has the best I've seen on ice. Don't start with the "roller skaters can't edge" as that's simply not true. Of course they have to edge, some roller skaters may not be as deep as others, but this happens in ice too. Apart from the heel camel and the inverted camel, ice skaters can do more different positions that roller skaters in spins, so I'd be interested to know which positions are easier for roller skaters to take command of.
    I guess the hard thing for a lot of people to accept is why God would allow me to go running through their yards, yelling and spinning around.


  18. #158
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    I'm disappointed that Butyrskaya isn't an option. She delivered one of the very few 7-triple performances to win Worlds.

    Her technique was also fantastic - yes, she let the nerves get to her in competition, causing her to have misses and stiff jumps. But when she was "on" like at '99 Worlds, '00 Worlds SP, '98 - '00 Europeans, etc. her jumps were awesome. She was also able to truly interpret the music. She gets my vote.

  19. #159
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    Why would Butyrskaya be an option when she beat Kwan only 2 times in their 8 years competing against each other, was generally dominated in her own era by Kwan, Slutskaya, Lipinski, Chen, Hughes, and Cohen, was only even a contender for the gold medal 2 or 3 times her whole long senior career, won only 3 World medals and no Olympic medals, never won the GP final, was not a standout either technically, artistically, or in terms of consistency, was gangly and awkward overall, and blew it badly in her two of her three biggest long programs ever- when trying to defend her World title in 2000 and trying to win an Olympic medal in 1998. Even if she were more consistent she wouldnt be that great a skater though if she had defended her World title in 2000 her rep for the final 2 seasons might have carried her to a brighter overall career, especialy provided she miracelously pulled out some clean long programs which she almost never did anyway.

    If you have Butyrskaya as an option you might as well have Jill Trenary or Surya Bonaly. They are skaters of about her level of success, importance in their own time, and overall ability and consistency.

  20. #160
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    ^The 7 triple comment is pretty curious to me too. Hasn't every single ladies champ since 91 landed a 6 or 7 triple LP. Even if you include 89 and 90, wasn't Jill the only one with less than 6. One extra triple that plenty of others like Kwan, Lipinski, Meisner etc.. did anyway, just seems like such a petty detail to focus on. At that rate, why not just list Kimmie in the poll and give us all a good chuckle!

    ETA: oh, maybe Baiul in 93 and Yuka in 94 only did 5? Lulu in 95 I guess was only 5. Boy, there really was a dip there.

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