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  1. #541

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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    If people with professional skater or coach's credentials were involved in the 'suggestion,' they might get in hot water with the PSA. You get booted from the association/suspended/warned/punished, AFAIR, for poaching another coach's teams.

    Robin Wagner (Sarah Hughes' old coach) got in difficulties for this, again, AFAIR, for poaching Angela Maxwell from Natalia Mishketunok, for example.

    http://mkforum.net/forum/showthread....9-Robin-Wagner

    That, and not wanting to get any bills/lawsuits from parents would be my relatively uninformed guess for why the USFS doesn't go there.
    Thank you for information. For me all this look werid - could parents know what is better for there children traning if they never skate and didnt know a lot about FS?
    But i understand like Federation could ask change things if they give money for this, yes?
    In USA skaters could be told to change there programs, what about Canada?
    And now i am interesting, did B-A had advice from someone to change coaches in 2008?

  2. #542
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatingfan04 View Post
    I was hoping to hear this, actually. I think training alongside W/P, P/B and the others will do wonders for P/I. It could potentially push their skating to another level like it did for W/P. Working with that brilliant coaching team probably won't hurt either...
    I love this team and was a little worried since DSC is extremely crowded. They might not get enough attention. It's extrememly difficult for them to get more support from their own federation either since they put all the eggs in one basket now,G/P. I recalled the interview that Angelica gave recently, she said icedance is a political sport. If your federation thinks you should not win, you won't. That happened to her when she won Olympic silver medal, instead of gold.

  3. #543

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhumba View Post
    I love this team and was a little worried since DSC is extremely crowded. They might not get enough attention. It's extrememly difficult for them to get more support from their own federation either since they put all the eggs in one basket now,G/P. I recalled the interview that Angelica gave recently, she said icedance is a political sport. If your federation thinks you should not win, you won't. That happened to her when she won Olympic silver medal, instead of gold.
    Hi, I am new to this forum, but I wanted to say that I am happy that P/I will train at DSC over the summer. Even if this sport is political, P/I have still the possibilty to become no. 3 in Canada. Look at Weaver and Poje, they worked so hard at their skills that Canadian and international judges couldn't overlook them anymore.Maybe this is also the key for P/I:becoming so good that people just have to notice them. (Sorry for my English)

  4. #544
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    W/P had the advantage of starting when there wasn't as much competition nationally and at the brink of a real switch from 6.0 to CoP styles and "waiting your turn" judging: they've never been off the national podium since they've been teamed up, behind only Dubreuil/Lauzon, Virtue/Moir, and Crone/Poirier (from the time they went senior). Their competition in the early years was relatively weak -- Senft/Gislason, Lefebvre/Markov Karam McGrath, Hann-McCurdy/Coreno, [partner] /Dougherty -- and they established their footing early.

    They did rise from 7th after the CD in their first Can Nats to take third in 2007. From the 2007-8 season on, they were assigned to and skated two (or three last year) GP events and 4C's and got lots of international exposure and experience. They also placed in the middle of the pack at their early GPs, as opposed to the bottom, like Hann-McCurdy/Coreno, who only got love from the international judges once -- 2010 4C's -- leading a mostly fresh-from-juniors field and, I'm sure, benefiting from having Zoueva/Shpilband as their coach. W/P still had to make their case with the international judges, since Canadian judges scored them under C/P. (It reminds me of how San Francisco Ballet, fed up at being perpetually judged a top "regional" ballet company in the US -- a condescending term in the arts -- under NYCB, even in a horror decade under Martins, and ABT, supposedly "national" companies, and went to Europe, where they were declared by some critics to be the best of the US companies.)

    If W/P were starting now at the level they did when they first went senior, it's close to certain that they would have been knocked off the podium a few times, and they wouldn't have been the default for international assignments. They had time to grow and develop to become the skaters they are today.

    The field in Canada is a lot stronger now -- Ralph/Hill made a stronger debut at Worlds this year (13th) than W/P did at their first (20) -- and much of P/I's competition comes from skaters who were strong juniors and came up through CoP. Harvey/Gagnon were better than most of W/P's early competition, and they were buried in 7th place at last year's Canadian Nationals.
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 05-23-2012 at 12:40 AM.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  5. #545
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    W/P had the advantage of starting when there wasn't as much competition nationally and at the brink of a real switch from 6.0 to CoP styles and "waiting your turn" judging: they've never been off the national podium since they've been teamed up, behind only Dubreuil/Lauzon, Virtue/Moir, and Crone/Poirier (from the time they went senior). Their competition in the early years was relatively weak -- Senft/Gislason, Lefebvre/Markov Karam McGrath, Hann-McCurdy/Coreno, [partner] /Dougherty -- and they established their footing early.

    They did rise from 7th after the CD in their first Can Nats to take third in 2007. From the 2007-8 season on, they were assigned to and skated two (or three last year) GP events and 4C's and got lots of international exposure and experience. They also placed in the middle of the pack at their early GPs, as opposed to the bottom, like Hann-McCurdy/Coreno, who only got love from the international judges once -- 2010 4C's -- leading a mostly fresh-from-juniors field and, I'm sure, benefiting from having Zoueva/Shpilband as their coach. W/P still had to make their case with the international judges, since Canadian judges scored them under C/P. (It reminds me of how San Francisco Ballet, fed up at being perpetually judged a top "regional" ballet company in the US -- a condescending term in the arts -- under NYCB, even in a horror decade under Martins, and ABT, supposedly "national" companies, and went to Europe, where they were declared by some critics to be the best of the US companies.)

    If W/P were starting now at the level they did when they first went senior, it's close to certain that they would have been knocked off the podium a few times, and they wouldn't have been the default for international assignments. They had time to grow and develop to become the skaters they are today.

    The field in Canada is a lot stronger now -- Ralph/Hill made a stronger debut at Worlds this year (13th) than W/P did at their first (20) -- and much of P/I's competition comes from skaters who were strong juniors and came up through CoP. Harvey/Gagnon were better than most of W/P's early competition, and they were buried in 7th place at last year's Canadian Nationals.
    While I think there is something to be said about W/P hitting senior at the right time, I'm not sure I agree with all of this. When W/P first went to world's, they were a brand new team. They skated both junior and senior that 1st year. Hann-McCurdy/Coreno were a wild mess (although entertaining) before finding Canton. I don't agree that Harvey/Gagnon were better than most of W/P first season. I thought they were sloppy, lacking finesse and generally over-rated the last 2 seasons, despite being fun to watch. While Ralph/Hill debuted at world's in a higher position, they have many years of experience skating together, including many junior internationals. They've been skating together longer than W/P, to put that in perspective. And W/P spent some time in the wilderness fighting for respect. And through hard work, they have finally started coming into their own. Nothing came easy or was handed to them.

    I think Paul/Islam made exactly the right move to train in DSC for the, summer. They can have 3 solid months there before school starts again. The environment will invigorate them and push them. It's exactly what they need. They'll get a new perspective, and maybe get stronger and healthier with new ways of doing things on and off ice. I think DSC is the better choice over Canton, as they are accused of being V/M light. Now they can perhaps better develop their own style without those comparisons. It's a great move. I wish them all the best!

  6. #546
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    kwanfan..I'm not sure I'm completely understanding all your points , so forgive me if I seem to go off target , but..

    It's so hard to make comparisons , because there are so many variables. E.g. W/P's World's debut came after only a year and a half together , still at the crux of the CoP change... whereas R/H have been together ,what ,13-14 yrs ? and in a pretty well established system.

    Who knows , really, where P/I would fit in ? They'll have to win a chance to get there , first... and no matter how hard they work ( I expect that will be a given ) this move will lend them credibility.

    I agree the field is much stronger now , but that sort of is what it is...maybe partly thanks to CoP , and partly just to a lot of talent surfacing at the same time.

    Where I think there's room for comparison is maybe the emotional impact of the journey for W/P and P/I..success at Jr. World's after a short time together.. podium finish at their first Sr. nationals .. only to be bumped under debatable circumstances, with the added wrinkle in P/I's case of a season marred by injury.

    While I think international exposure is absolutely necessary , and I'm glad there is a GP, there's no doubt that the GP can't give a true picture of where each team stands as many never meet until World's. And call me paranoid , but I have to say that to some degree PR still counts . If you're perennially at the GP, but never make it to World's, I don't know that you'll always be given your due the next GP season.

    So I see Alex and Mitch as potentially facing a similar dilemma to what W/P faced in the past, if for slightly different reasons , and I think they could not have gone to a better place than DSC , though Z/S would have been equally beneficial .Both schools command a lot of respect at the moment , and even if P/I only stay for the summer ( I hope it's longer ) they will have to be taken very seriously. ( This is , of course, on top of the growth they're bound to experience )

  7. #547
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    Teams that want to succeed have to fight for success. They have to look at the longer-term picture and persist in the pursuit of their goals.

    Looking at recent top Canadian teams...Virtue and Moir built their skills through many years of hard work; they moved away from home when still young, spent years developing technique and unison, and fought through serious injury issues. Crone and Poirier were together for ten years and built very strong skating skills (though yes, they had areas in which they could have continued to make improvements). Weaver and Poje weren't handed anything on a platter, but why would they be? They had many technical issues to address when they first got together, and also needed to learn the mental toughness to compete with consistency. They worked hard, moved to coaches who could help them and succeeded.

    The Canadian ice dance field is getting deeper, I agree, but I think Paul/Islam have a lot of potential. Hopefully they will follow V/M and W/P's examples and persist through their recent setbacks, moving to other coaches if needed.

    As to Gilles/Poirier - I think their style will be quite unique and potentially very popular, and may fit in very well with current trends of what's being rewarded in ice dance. Chris Dean's choreo for them this season, and their GP season performances will be critical; if they hit the GP circuit with a splash, they'll solidify their position. But there are a lot of if's, much can change. Ralph/Hill and Paul/Islam need to persist and find ways to improve. JMO.

  8. #548
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatingfan04 View Post
    Great to see that Skate Canada, in their infinite wisdom, has given two spots to a team that has only competed one competition in their entire careers (and a domestic one at that) instead of giving one of the spots to a team that has gotten good international results in the past. Way to go. I wonder which team SC wants to get to worlds? Let's just hope the judging at nationals isn't a crock like it was this year. Though, with this latest bit of info, I'm not holding my breath.
    I feel the same way, skatingfan04.

    Quote Originally Posted by skatingfan04 View Post
    ...

    I really hate to say this, because I actually don't have a problem with G/P as skaters or people (it's merely their scores that bother me, which I realise are out of their control), but I'm hoping they get penalised for all of the glaring deficiencies that the national judges ignored at nationals during the GP season. ...

    I'm hoping that P/I at least get a couple of senior B events. Not only will the experience help- them, but good results there could open SC's eyes as well.
    I don't think there is anything wrong with what you are saying/hoping for as that seems to be a fairly judged competition...many of us were perplexed and frustrated at the scores at Canadians this year. I like G&P too, and think they have lots of potential. They have good chemistry and I think Piper has star quality. and I can't say enough about Paul's skating skills. but they need some time to develop as so many here have mentioned.

    I, too, am hoping Alex and Mitch do more than one B event and create a real buzz.

    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    Who didn't see this coming after Nationals? ...
    I just didn't want to believe it...

    Quote Originally Posted by skatingfan04 View Post
    And just like that, their prospects are brightening. If this means what I think it does, then there may be more hope of them making the world team than there was a few minutes ago. Hey, if it worked for Weaver/Poje...

    http://twitter.com/#!/mitchislam
    great news, indeed Thank you for sharing. I think David Islam is an excellent coach; I just worry that he doesn't have the political clout. anyways, like others, I also think P&I could benefit from being around other great teams and training in a new environment. and Anjelika was a very tough, focused, and consistent competitor, and I think she has been able to pass these things on to P&B and W&P. I am so impressed with her coaching and very excited to see the impact she will have on P&I.

    and thank you so much, daniskates93 for taking those stunning photos. I LOVE the moments you captured. and thank you, skatingfan04 for finding them for us

  9. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by clarie View Post
    That is good news. I am upset for them about the assignments and hope they can showcase themselves in the Senior B competitions. Their main problem has been injuries, so as long as they remain healthy and able to train, I am hoping that they will improve their stamina and be able to develop their programs to their fullest. I still remember being blown away by their long program at Skate Canada in Kingston 2 yrs ago. They have all the goods, so they just need some luck to go with it.
    ITA

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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    While I think there is something to be said about W/P hitting senior at the right time, I'm not sure I agree with all of this.
    I have no problem with disagreement, but you're arguing against points I never made or substantiating my points.

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    When W/P first went to world's, they were a brand new team. They skated both junior and senior that 1st year. Hann-McCurdy/Coreno were a wild mess (although entertaining) before finding Canton.
    My point was that W/P's early competition was weaker than P/I's current competition, and that their early competition got weaker international results. H-M/C were some of W/P's early competition.

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    I don't agree that Harvey/Gagnon were better than most of W/P first season. I thought they were sloppy, lacking finesse and generally over-rated the last 2 seasons, despite being fun to watch.
    I didn't argue that H/G were better than W/P's first season. I argued that they were stronger than Senft/Gislason, Lefebvre/Markov Karam McGrath, Hann-McCurdy/Coreno, [partner] /Dougherty. Whether you agree with that is another question and YMMV.

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    While Ralph/Hill debuted at world's in a higher position, they have many years of experience skating together, including many junior internationals. They've been skating together longer than W/P, to put that in perspective.
    My point is that R/H are more formidable competition now than W/P were when they debuted. The field in Canada is stronger now than when W/P became a couple.

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    And W/P spent some time in the wilderness fighting for respect.
    "In the wilderness" is relative. W/P got two GP's and a Four Continents slot each of those years. They also had only C/P on their tail during that time, not Ralph/Hill, Paul/Islam, Gilles/Poirier, Orford/Williams, and soon Crone/Sorensen. Skate Canada didn't have other young teams with formidable international experience with their current and former partners with which to replace them, and W/P got opportunities that they would not have with more teams deserving GP's and 4C's slots, other teams to give a shot as Canada #3 after a debut at 20th -- their closest rivals, H-M/C had a weaker international record and weren't likely to surpass them, even after moving to Canton -- smaller GP fields, and stricter GP selection criteria.

    The best example of this is Paul/Islam, because Skate Canada can. Ralph/Hill should have been guaranteed a spot because of their WS, but instead of letting another host country pick them and giving P/I a host spot, they didn't. I'm not sure if the rules have changed to move split couples from the alternates list to the initial selection only -- we'll need to see the GP announcement -- but if the alternates rules are the same as last year, G/P would have gotten one "split couple" initial selection with the rule change and would have been at the top of the alternates list to get a second. Skate Canada used a host spot for them. If that isn't sending a message, I'm not sure what would.

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    And through hard work, they have finally started coming into their own. Nothing came easy or was handed to them.
    I never said that things were easy or handed to them. I said that things were easier for them because the fields weren't as strong when they started, and Skate Canada didn't have as many opportunities to brush them aside while they developed. W/P had promise, but they weren't recognized like V/M and I/K as prodigies.

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    I think Paul/Islam made exactly the right move to train in DSC for the, summer.
    I agree. I think they are a fantastic team.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

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    kwanfan1818, ITA. My guess was Skate Canada negotiated with other federation to get 2 spots GP for G/P and traded TBA spot to give it to R/H when they do not need to be in that spot since they're guaranteed one GP elsewhere based on their WS. I don't recall ISU rule on the "comeback" skaters were guaranteed 2 GP. I was surprised to see G/P got two. Last year, the "comeback" teams got two due to the priority on the substitute list, correct me if I am wrong. SC could have given P/I the TBA spot, send R/H elsewhere due to their top 24 WS. G/P should get one GP instead of two. However, they're determined to push G/P as much as possible, that's how they got 2 GP, IMO.

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    kwanfan..now I get the picture. I wasn't clear on some of your first post ,above, but thought that your SF ballet example was apros pos...

    I really don't like the smoke signals SC are sending out..another black mark against them in my book. ( Their page is beginning to look like one of those heavily redacted secret documents ).

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhumba View Post
    I don't recall ISU rule on the "comeback" skaters were guaranteed 2 GP. I was surprised to see G/P got two. Last year, the "comeback" teams got two due to the priority on the substitute list, correct me if I am wrong. SC could have given P/I the TBA spot, send R/H elsewhere due to their top 24 WS. G/P should get one GP instead of two. However, they're determined to push G/P as much as possible, that's how they got 2 GP, IMO.
    I think you mean "Split Couples". Last year's rule was that "Split Couples" would be added to the alternates list after "Come-back" skaters -- there were none last year -- and would get one, if there were enough slots, and their country didn't max out, and if the opening wasn't back-to-back with a host spot they had, etc.

    The only "Split Couples" to get two were those who were a host substitution and were assigned off the alternates list, like Denney/Coughlin and Dube/Wolfe in Pairs, or, like Chock/Bates, who earned one assignment off the alternates list because of his split with Samuelson and another for her split with Zuerlein.

    It's clear from this year's selection process -- Gilles/Poirier, Peng/Zhang, Yankowskas/Reagan, Davis Ladwig -- that the rules changed to allow "Split couples" to get a non-host pick, and in the case of G/P and P/Z, also a host pick in the initial selection. We need the announcement to see if 1. They were guaranteed one, even if not chosen as a host pick or 2. If they can get a second, if they don't already have a host pick, from the alternates list, too, or if only couples who got together after the initial selection deadline can be added to the alternates list, like Crone/Sorensen (assuming he has a release from the Danish Fed), and get an assignment off of it.

    Come-back (formerly seeded) skaters/teams who've taken at least one season off have a choice of a one-time option to get two in the initial selection, or they can be added to the top of the alternates list.

    I think Skate Canada has made its choice leading into Sochi for Canada #3, and that Ralph/Hill are their current back-up plan, unless Crone/Sorensen burst out. (I'd love to see this -- I think Sorensen is a lovely skater -- but while I don't think they'll debut as weakly as Samuelson/Gilles, whose score at CoC didn't make the GP minimum, I'm thinking next Olympic cycle.) If Gilles/Poirier are a hit with International judges -- and I don't see them doing worse than Chock/Zuerlein in their debut, even without S/Z behind them -- they will be a solid Canada #2 behind W/P in the next Olympic cycle, ensuring three spots for Canada. It's not a bad strategy, but I just don't think it's necessary to keep P/I out-of-sight in the process.
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 05-23-2012 at 07:47 PM.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

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    Despite their injuries and struggles this season, P/I won me over as a fan. I'm for them, but like others have said, I hope this motivates them to work that much harder. They have much potential. I'm looking forward to see how they continue to develop their own style.

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    They are very young and already have most of the attributes of the best teams. They just need to work hard, stay healthy. They are still very young with many years ahead of them.....I'm wishing them a progressive season, and I think this summer will bolster their confidence I hope. They are a very "pretty" team, and have a nice connection.
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    Quote Originally Posted by clarie View Post
    They are very young and already have most of the attributes of the best teams. They just need to work hard, stay healthy. They are still very young with many years ahead of them.....I'm wishing them a progressive season, and I think this summer will bolster their confidence I hope. They are a very "pretty" team, and have a nice connection.
    ITA. I wonder if traning at DSC will affect their trip to Thronhill this summer. I suspect they'll end up skipping the event, but if that's the price to pay for them being in Detroit, so be it. I will miss seeing them skate, though.

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    P/I's Skate Canada profile has been updated. No new info, but a nice new national team picture. They look lovely.

    http://www.skatecanada.ca/Profile/ta...&strlanguage=E

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    Quote Originally Posted by skatingfan04 View Post
    P/I's Skate Canada profile has been updated. No new info, but a nice new national team picture. They look lovely.

    http://www.skatecanada.ca/Profile/ta...&strlanguage=E
    Thanks for posting this! my goodness, these two are gorgeous! and I don't even think that's the best pic of Mitch.

    I really can't wait to hear more about their new training environment and programs. wishing them all the best

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    I'm just sad that they don't get a chance to showcase their programs in any Grand Prix comps. I guess we'll just have to wait for You Tube vids. .
    Addicted to FSU

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    Perhaps they will be doing some summer competitions?

    IMO, Lake Placid IDC would be good for them to do, rather than the Canadian summer competitions, since they need to establish international cred as well as Canadian in any case. And since SC seems to not be as supportive of them as one might hope, I think LPIDC would be a better choice in any case-I have no confidence in them being judged fairly, or any other Canadian dancers other than V&M and G&P, and just perhaps W&P, in Canadian competitions this season, since the Canadian Nationals judging was so AFU'd.

    (Admission-I would LOVE it if they were at LPIDC-I might be able to get there to see them!)

    Another possibility would be the Salt Lake City Senior B that is happening this fall, although that might require the OK of Skate Canada for them to compete?

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