Sudden Aggression in Dogs (HELP!!)

[Amy L]

Ted's next vet visit is on Wednesday. It's to check his stitches, but I think I will request X-rays for his hips as well.

I've been looking into behavior therapists in the Houston area. I found one that has tons of credentials (a licensed vet + a phd in behavioral psychology), but she is expensive. The first session would cost over $800, with other visits being only slightly cheaper. Most of the expense is that she charges $100 per hour for driving to in-home visits. Her office is 1 1/2 - 2 hours (depending on traffic) from where I live. So for her just to show up would be a $300 round trip. I can't really drive to her office, not with trying to restrain two fighting dogs in my car for such a long trip.

There's a brand new dog training center in my town and I'm trying to look into them. The lady who owns it is the wife of a veterinarian that used to look after a dog I had when I was a teenager. He was really nice and very professional, so I think she could be good. I left a message at the office this morning, but no one has called me back yet.

I want my good doggies back.

[Tak]

Amy - here's a quick suggestion. Maybe you could phone the $800 therapist and see if she could recommend someone closer? Be honest with her about the expense. She sounds like a real professional, so she should understand [i'm hoping].

I'm guessing it's not possible to crate the dogs for the car trip?

And good luck with the trainer - that sounds like a viable possibility - just be sure she understands that the fighting starts in the house, so good behavior in a class situation is no guarantee.

I really hope you can find something to work for you.

[Judy]

Who is the alpha? Or are they both alphas?

I would look into training .. not Petsmart Training but a more specialized training that can help you deal with this. To me it sounds like they both want to be the alpha which can't be allowed to happen.

No way in hell would I pay $800 you should be able to find someone else. Are you in a city or a more remote area?

[Amy L]

I'm guessing it's not possible to crate the dogs for the car trip?

Their crates are HUGE. I'd need to rent the Scooby Doo van to fit them in.

And good luck with the trainer - that sounds like a viable possibility - just be sure she understands that the fighting starts in the house, so good behavior in a class situation is no guarantee.

Yes, I mentioned that in the message I left on the office's voicemail. I know her husband's vet practice has a mobile unit - - I assume (hope!) that her training business uses it as well.

And thanks for your advice about getting a recommendation from the super expensive behavioral expert, I will send out another e-mail to her.

[BigB08822]

Amy, may I ask where you live? You mentioned being an hour and a half from Houston. I have family and friends in Beaumont, TX so maybe they know someone. I also have family north of Houston. I you want, PM me but if you don't want to say, I completely understand.

[Japanfan]

No way in hell would I pay $800 you should be able to find someone else. Are you in a city or a more remote area?

There are rich people who can afford that kind of money and an 'elite' within the dog business. For example, if you want to train with someone who has learner the Brad Patterson no-treats method (he has the show 'At the End of My Leash') it's twice as much as a regular trainer. And of course Brad gets a cut. . .

But it is not necessary to hire a so-called specialist trainer or behaviourist, a regular dog trainer should do fine. The dog trainer I hired here charged $75 per visit and was well worth it. If the trainer is good, you should not need more than a few sessions Amy. Most of the work of training is performed by you and your dogs.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[Anita18]

Gorgeous dogs Amy. I have a golden myself and am partial to the breed. They and the German Shepherds are my favourite. IMO the Golden is the most beautiful of dogs, the German the most noble.

I am too. My parents have a golden at home (he's getting old and lumpy ) and whenever I see one I always have to give it lots of love and attention.

Soooo... I thought the 4th fight ended quickly enough, but then later I saw blood on the doggy bed in Teddy's (the boy's) pen. I discovered a rather gnarly gash, about an inch and a half long, between the back of his neck and shoulder blades. It was only a few minutes from vet clinic closing time, but they were kind enough to wait for me to bring Teddy in. He's staying there overnight since he needs some stitches.

To tally everything up, in the past 24 hours there have been four fights, three vet visits, four stitches, and about $400 in vet bills. I also have hardly slept or eaten during this time.

I don't think I could stomach just letting them fight it out. I would need a thousand-percent guarantee that no one would die, and I'm afraid if I let it go on more than a few seconds they'd get too into it and I'd never be able to pull them apart. Ugh, I had so much hope when they walked so well together today. But as soon as they get into the house, it turns into a gladiator ring.

OMG that sounds horrible! I don't think my parents would be able to handle such drama. (Their golden has always been extremely dog-aggressive so we've never considered having another dog....)

I know it's one thing to know what the right thing to do is - to let them figure it out themselves. (If it's mainly in the house, it's surely a territorial thing.) But I can't imagine having to actually go through with it when they're hurting each other in this way.

Best of luck to you and the doggies!

[Amy L]

Last night Teddy managed to pull out the drain and all of his stitches. The vet said he wasn't going to bother trying to stitch him up anymore, I just have to make sure to clean the wound a few times a day. He'll eventually have a large knotty scar, but since he's so fuzzy it won't be noticeable once his fur grows back. I also found a big half-dollar sized scab underneath his collar. The vet pulled it off and now that's another wound I have to keep my eye on. sigh... Sadie Jo really jacked him up...

I also had Ted's back end x-rayed. His hips are fine, but he has some arthritis forming on his spine. That could definitely be a factor in why he's not letting SJ jump on him anymore. The arthritis is right on his lower back, no wonder he's getting so miffed that an 80 pound dog is humping on him.

The in-town trainer still hasn't responded yet. But since Ted's healing is going to take longer, it's going to take longer to try to put the dogs back together anyway. Keeping them separate is a logistical nightmare, but I really think that if she got near an oozy bloody dog it would be like throwing chum at a shark. I'm walking her like 5 times a day, it seems to keep her calmer. My mom helps me walk both of them together (with him walking behind several feet) in the morning and evening.

[Cupid]

When my dog was about a year old (still considered a puppy for her breed), the old Golden Retriever next door took a chunk out of her flank. She required about 10 stitches. She didn't have a drain put in, and the wound eventually developed cellulitis. She bit a hole into the cellulitis lump and it drained itself. I remember cleaning it on occasion with hydrogen peroxide and I think she was put on antibiotics. Today, there's no scar that I can see.

But, it broke my heart as I remember her whimpering on the couch for a couple days after the incident. AFter that, she absolutely HATED the Golden and any other dog for that manner. Whenever they confronted each other outside in the yard, they went at it. Couple more trips to the vet for my dog and him. Thankfully, (and I know it sounds horrible), he died recently, so I don't have to worry about him anymore.

I really think my dog PTSD after this incident. She saw other dogs as enemies out to attack her. It took me years to get her at the point where she is now, able to relax around strange dogs and not snarl and attack first.

Your dogs are older than mine so hopefully he won't be the same way around her. Have you noticed any change in his behavior when he sees her?

[Amy L]

Your dogs are older than mine so hopefully he won't be the same way around her. Have you noticed any change in his behavior when he sees her?

For the first day or so after, he would curl his lip at her when he was in his kennel and she got too close. When they go on walks together now, he doesn't have any reaction to her. The pain medicine he's on makes him pretty stoned so he's rather happy at the moment. Their kennels are next to each other, so they still sleep really close together at night. She's very sniffy at his wound but otherwise they don't growl/bark/etc. at each other. Their real problem is fighting when they are unleashed and are in specific areas of the house. Their battle ground is the kitchen/living room (it's one open space).

[rfisher]

I can't believe the posts about aggressive Golden Retrievers! I've never heard of an aggressive Golden. Aggressive yellow labs yes, but not Goldens. I'd really have to wonder about their breeding. My Golden was the most laid back non-violent dog I've ever owned and so have been every other Golden I've ever encountered. Ever. Aggression is absolutely contrary to the breed Standard.

[Anita18]

I can't believe the posts about aggressive Golden Retrievers! I've never heard of an aggressive Golden. Aggressive yellow labs yes, but not Goldens. I'd really have to wonder about their breeding. My Golden was the most laid back non-violent dog I've ever owned and so have been every other Golden I've ever encountered. Ever. Aggression is absolutely contrary to the breed Standard.

My parents' Golden is the sweetest thing around people. He's totally fine with little kids poking him and pulling his tail and stuff. Never ever snapped at a person.

But he's EXTREMELY dog aggressive. We adopted him when he was a year old so we suspect he was attacked by another dog when he was a puppy and that's why he exhibits such aggressive behavior toward other dogs.

Well, since we adopted him I guess we can't say for sure whether he's a pure Golden but he certainly looks like one.

[Tak]

Amy - this situation sounds really terrible and I feel so sorry for you. But their is NO WAY I would ever put those dogs back together - trainer or not - until Teddy was TOTALLY healed. That other dog will take weakness as an incitement to attack. JMO.

Is the other golden aggressive around other dogs too, or just Teddy? And did the vet give you any meds for the arthritis? My sisters dog has arthritis too and she gives her chondritin/glucosamine - I may have spelled that wrong -it's the same thing people take. And it helps a lot. Her dog now goes up and down stairs again on her own [I mean without coaxing and anytime throughout the day, not just at night]. She'll follow my sister around the house again. It might work for Teddy too. You can buy it in any health food store - I dont think it's that expensive - and your vet could help you figure out the right dose.

[rfisher]

My parents' Golden is the sweetest thing around people. He's totally fine with little kids poking him and pulling his tail and stuff. Never ever snapped at a person.

But he's EXTREMELY dog aggressive. We adopted him when he was a year old so we suspect he was attacked by another dog when he was a puppy and that's why he exhibits such aggressive behavior toward other dogs.

Well, since we adopted him I guess we can't say for sure whether he's a pure Golden but he certainly looks like one.

If he's a rescue dog and you're not certain of his breeding, I'd go with something in his formative period. I had an intact male Golden with two other males and there was zero aggression between them. Responsible Golden breeders would not breed any Golden that showed aggression.

[Amy L]

Amy - this situation sounds really terrible and I feel so sorry for you. But their is NO WAY I would ever put those dogs back together - trainer or not - until Teddy was TOTALLY healed. That other dog will take weakness as an incitement to attack. JMO.

That's my plan! It's not easy to keep them apart - - my house is small and they are getting frustrated by being in their kennels a lot. But since the weather is nice I keep switching them with one outside and one inside.

Is the other golden aggressive around other dogs too, or just Teddy?

She rarely gets close to other dogs, but if I'm walking her and she sees another dog she will bark and whine. Barking dogs behind fences get her attention, but she doesn't vocalize. Small animals in general are all bite-sized snacks to her. She's really only friendly and sweet to humans, and she loves loves loves little kids. I have seen her practically pass out and melt with love when kids come up to pet her. I just don't get that dog sometimes!

Teddy, otoh, does not care about anything. At the vet a cat once got right in his face and sat down in front of him, only an inch away. He was mildy interested at most.

And did the vet give you any meds for the arthritis? My sisters dog has arthritis too and she gives her chondritin/glucosamine

I went to Wal-Mart and picked some up for Ted. Since he's 109 pounds (we're working on getting him to lose weight!) he can take human dosages.

[antmanb]

Sorry to hear of all your troubles amy. I can't imagine how awful it would be to have your babies fighting. It makes me very glad that my two dogs are small (Lhasa Apso) and are very easily controlled. They are 4 and 6 and other than the first two weeks when I first got the younger one and the older one looked at me like I was the devil himself for bringing the annoying new thing into the house they have had exactly one fight about a year ago over a treat. The older one taunts the younger one by waiting until the younger one has finished his treat. It was the one and only time the younger one tried to eat the other's treat.

[Karina1974]

Well, since we adopted him I guess we can't say for sure whether he's a pure Golden but he certainly looks like one.

Yeah, you can't tell sometimes. My brother's first dog was half Golden (his mother) and his father was part Samoyed, and Norwegian Elkhound. He, OTOH, looked exactly like a pure-bred Black Lab. The only way you could tell that he wasn't is that he had "fringe" fur on the underside of his tail, and his legs were a little shorter than a Lab's.

He stayed with us on a number of occasions, and my dad had him out walking one day, and they ran into someone who said they were a breeder and actually wanted to buy him!

[rfisher]

Yellow labradors and Golden Retrievers are not the same breed. The yellow lab is just a color variation. Labs are larger and more likely to be aggressive than a Golden.

[Civic]

I can't believe the posts about aggressive Golden Retrievers! I've never heard of an aggressive Golden. Aggressive yellow labs yes, but not Goldens. I'd really have to wonder about their breeding. My Golden was the most laid back non-violent dog I've ever owned and so have been every other Golden I've ever encountered. Ever. Aggression is absolutely contrary to the breed Standard.

Several years ago I read an article in the newspaper about a golden retriever that mauled an elderly woman. She had to have plastic surgery to repair the damage. So while rare, it can and has happened.

[Nekatiivi]

Yeah, you can't tell sometimes. My brother's first dog was half Golden (his mother) and his father was part Samoyed, and Norwegian Elkhound. He, OTOH, looked exactly like a pure-bred Black Lab. The only way you could tell that he wasn't is that he had "fringe" fur on the underside of his tail, and his legs were a little shorter than a Lab's.

He stayed with us on a number of occasions, and my dad had him out walking one day, and they ran into someone who said they were a breeder and actually wanted to buy him!

Yellow/cream white fur is a trait carried by recessive gene. If Anita's dog was Golden mix it is quite likely that it would not have the typical Golden Retriver colour. But of course you can never be sure!

What comes to aggressive behavior, I have read that problem rising in both labradors and golden retrivers.