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  1. #61

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    I will agree with the others about 22 not being old. I am twice that age - old enough to be your mother!!!!
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  2. #62
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    I wouldn't be so quick to pounce on the age issue. I know 20 year olds who are cautious and 50 year olds who are fearless. Each of us has our own limitations and strengths that may have nothing to do with our age. That's what makes adult skaters so unique.

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    Well, there are exceptions everywhere but it's common to have more fear with age. At 50 one has more fear than a 25 years old. That is normal.

    Just look at the two categories : young children between 6 and 10 and adults.
    Among the children look at their level in comparition with each other, and then do the same for the adult, say yourself. The best children go for difficulties, they try, fall hard again and again. The best adults try but they fall less, they are a little bit more tentative. And imagine that these adults who are among the best in their age category would actually be the same than these good children with 20 or more years !
    Age is for something, one can't hide behind this reality that makes things harder for adults, like other factors. There is a reason why adult starters will never reach the level some kids can.
    But get the relative balance of what you do and look at how good you are compared to other adults and think that this is the relative level you would have had if you were a kid.

    A good adult skater (who started as an adult) would have been a good young skater. As well as a low level adult skater would have been a low level young skater. The "good" and "low" qualifications beeing relative to the age group.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artifice View Post
    A good adult skater (who started as an adult) would have been a good young skater. As well as a low level adult skater would have been a low level young skater. The "good" and "low" qualifications beeing relative to the age group.
    I don't think you can make that assumption at all.
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artifice View Post
    A good adult skater (who started as an adult) would have been a good young skater. As well as a low level adult skater would have been a low level young skater. The "good" and "low" qualifications beeing relative to the age group.
    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    I don't think you can make that assumption at all.
    Well, there will never be any way of knowing for sure, so it's as good an assumption as any. As an adult onset skater, I think assuming my skating ability in relation to my fellow adults would have been equivalent if we were all 8-year olds is a lot better than living in the world of "shoulda, woulda, coulda" just because I didn't start as a kid.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doubletoe View Post
    Well, there will never be any way of knowing for sure, so it's as good an assumption as any. As an adult onset skater, I think assuming my skating ability in relation to my fellow adults would have been equivalent if we were all 8-year olds is a lot better than living in the world of "shoulda, woulda, coulda" just because I didn't start as a kid.
    I'm not a big fan of "shoulda, woulda, coulda" in general, but adults have lives outside the rink and based on that, there are a lot more variables that affect what level they get to/how quickly, etc. When I used to work 12 hour-days on a regular basis, I wouldn't really get to skate that much, so it took me a year and a half to pass one of the lower tests (pre-juv, I think). Once I changed jobs and had more time to skate, I passed intermediate moves in about a year. That doesn't mean I suddenly became a better skater; I just had more time to practice.

    Kids -in general- train similar amounts of time, so it's somewhat easier to compare abilities. Adults have different commitments and priorities outside the rink, so there are more things to consider when you compare them besides the level they actually reach after a certain time.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by ioana View Post
    I'm not a big fan of "shoulda, woulda, coulda" in general, but adults have lives outside the rink and based on that, there are a lot more variables that affect what level they get to/how quickly, etc. When I used to work 12 hour-days on a regular basis, I wouldn't really get to skate that much, so it took me a year and a half to pass one of the lower tests (pre-juv, I think). Once I changed jobs and had more time to skate, I passed intermediate moves in about a year. That doesn't mean I suddenly became a better skater; I just had more time to practice.

    Kids -in general- train similar amounts of time, so it's somewhat easier to compare abilities. Adults have different commitments and priorities outside the rink, so there are more things to consider when you compare them besides the level they actually reach after a certain time.
    It's true that adults have varying outside commitments that affect our skating time. On the other hand, there are plenty of kids who would progress a lot faster if their parents were willing/able to drive them to the rink for practice every morning at 5 or 6am and pay for 8 lessons a week.

    I think one thing we can all agree on is that not all skaters are afforded the same opportunities, and we ultimately just have to make the most of the ice time we have and give ourselves credit for every bit of progress we make! And of course it helps to remember that there's always someone out there who isn't getting to skate at all and thinks we are lucky. . .

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doubletoe View Post
    I think one thing we can all agree on is that not all skaters are afforded the same opportunities, and we ultimately just have to make the most of the ice time we have and give ourselves credit for every bit of progress we make! And of course it helps to remember that there's always someone out there who isn't getting to skate at all and thinks we are lucky. . .

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    But you know what? You can knock me down. I'll get back up. You score me badly, I'll try harder next time. I've fought too hard to get to this point, and I'll keep on fighting. If that means gritting my teeth and pretending a punching bag is a judge who'll never give me a positive GOE, so be it. My road may not lead to Sochi (as a skater at least), but I will control where it goes, and it's not going to the scrapheap.
    I wonder how you're defining scrapheap.

    Never getting triple jumps or representing your country internationally? Most kids won't either.

    Never getting double jumps or reaching the middle competition levels? Again, many kids won't get there either. But you might -- don't give up hope.

    Competing as an adult rather than standard track? Depending on what age limits your federation puts on various competition levels, and what skill level you're able to reach, that could be your own choice. But if you define adult competition as a scrapheap, what does that say about all the older adult skaters?

    Not getting credit for elements because of judges' biases against adults? I haven't seen that happen.

    Not getting any credit for elements not performed according to strict IJS standards? That even happens to elite skaters at times.

    But the elite standards are not necessarily appropriate for lower level competition. In the US, all competitions at levels where single and double jumps are usually cheated or where 3 revolutions per foot and 2 revolution per basic position on spins are rare are judged under 6.0, for both kids and adults. I'd like to see adaptations of the IJS to give appropriate partial credit for partially successful elements at those levels -- for both kids and adults.

    If you're competing under a system that uses elite standards at low levels, then compare how your elements are treated to kids with similar skill levels, not to those who are already at the level of rotating clean double jumps (unless you're already at that level too).

    Does a 15-year-old who skates the same number of hours per week and struggles with the same skills you do belong on a scrapheap? Even if she's having fun and making slow progress but can't or won't put in enough time to reach high competition levels?

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doubletoe View Post
    And of course it helps to remember that there's always someone out there who isn't getting to skate at all and thinks we are lucky. . .
    *raises hand* can I temporarily exclude myself from that since I am off the ice until after ACL and MCL knee surgery and for a good 4 months after that ?

  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Does a 15-year-old who skates the same number of hours per week and struggles with the same skills you do belong on a scrapheap? Even if she's having fun and making slow progress but can't or won't put in enough time to reach high competition levels?
    I always find it disappointing to hear about a young skater or parent of a skater who talks about giving up the sport because they feel the kid isn't progressing in terms of competitions or tests. It is sad in a way that they have lost that reason why they took up the sport in the first place which was because they enjoyed doing it. And I really hate when they ask you if they should give up because you are a judge and they think that you might be some sort of expert on the subject.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    I always find it disappointing to hear about a young skater or parent of a skater who talks about giving up the sport because they feel the kid isn't progressing in terms of competitions or tests. It is sad in a way that they have lost that reason why they took up the sport in the first place which was because they enjoyed doing it. And I really hate when they ask you if they should give up because you are a judge and they think that you might be some sort of expert on the subject.
    Statistically speaking, everyone should give up the sport, based on the percentage of talented skaters who actually ever make it to Worlds or the Olympics (and the cost of training for the years it takes to get there)!

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    I always find it disappointing to hear about a young skater or parent of a skater who talks about giving up the sport because they feel the kid isn't progressing in terms of competitions or tests. It is sad in a way that they have lost that reason why they took up the sport in the first place which was because they enjoyed doing it.
    Sometimes if you aren't progressing but it takes away some of the enjoyment. When I was 13/14 and was skating every day, I had a few doubles, was close to the rest and had moved up 4 levels in 3 years. When I was 15, circumstances away from skating meant I had to cut way back and could only skate twice a week. Not only did that stop me making any progress but meant I was going backwards. I never thought I was going anywhere with skating but it took a lot of the fun out of it and I considered stopping. Sadly I became ill around the same time and the decision was taken out of my hands.

  14. #74
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    Well, that's kind of what I was trying to say. I understand that the ideal for competition skating is the "perfect" element (be it jump, footwork, or spin); however, I do think that this ideal tens to get in the way of fun/progress, (and, for some, can even be an excuse to avoid trying harder items). That said, I don't advocate skaters throwing themselves willy-nilly around the ice, getting hurt, and being a danger to others .....But I do think that the adults tend to error on the side of "perfection" while the kids tend to just "go for it." I believe this is more psychological than physical. Adults tend to be more follow the rule/perfection/do it by the book types, while kids just go for it. Yes, there needs to be a standard, especially in a judged event....But sometimes adhering too strictly to this standard can stand in the way of progress and enjoyment, at least I think so....
    Last edited by Firefly123; 03-10-2011 at 01:19 PM. Reason: added sentence

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly123 View Post
    Yes, there needs to be a standard, especially in a judged event....But sometimes adhering too strictly to this standard can stand in the way of progress and enjoyment, at least I think so....
    Extremes behavior are never good. Being too much into perfection prevents the skater from trying harder things, and going too fast into hard stuff can lead to nothing neither.
    It's up to the coach and/or the adult skater to know when it's ok to try for difficulties, a balance between risk and technic is necessary.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    I always find it disappointing to hear about a young skater or parent of a skater who talks about giving up the sport because they feel the kid isn't progressing in terms of competitions or tests. It is sad in a way that they have lost that reason why they took up the sport in the first place which was because they enjoyed doing it. And I really hate when they ask you if they should give up because you are a judge and they think that you might be some sort of expert on the subject.
    Thank you for this. I see so many 13-14-year-olds skating with seemingly permanent frowns at freestyle sessions because they've realized they're probably never going to make it to the Olympics, and they don't see skating for the sake of skating (fun, exercise, socialization, developing goals and ambitions, etc) as worthwhile anymore, but they feel they have to do it because they've invested enough time and money into it, and it's really sad. Parents are a huge factor, obviously.

  17. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by kigali View Post
    Thank you for this. I see so many 13-14-year-olds skating with seemingly permanent frowns at freestyle sessions because they've realized they're probably never going to make it to the Olympics, and they don't see skating for the sake of skating (fun, exercise, socialization, developing goals and ambitions, etc) as worthwhile anymore, but they feel they have to do it because they've invested enough time and money into it, and it's really sad. Parents are a huge factor, obviously.
    Yes that Olympic dream which reality determines is not going to happen for pretty much most skaters. It is the rare few that make it to that level.

    That is one advantage adults have over kids is that they do it because they just want to do it. The only pressure is on themselves. Sometimes they just want to be able to skate around without falling over and good on them for that. I know that was my first goal when I started skating (however reality can determine otherwise).
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    Reading this thread, I am thinking if I were to skate under ijs rather than 6.0 I would get a negative score. I wonder if that is possible.

  19. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    Reading this thread, I am thinking if I were to skate under ijs rather than 6.0 I would get a negative score. I wonder if that is possible.
    You will still get something because any negative GOEs are taken off the base value. You will still get something for the element.

    Although I suppose if your combined PCS and TES were under 5 and then you fell on your butt about 6 times (1 point deduction on each), then yes you could end up in the negative.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    Hmm, well I don't fall much, but I don't think any of my jumps would get any points, if they don't get a base value, can they not get a negative GOE?

    That makes me feel a little better. I'd probably score whatever the value of a bad scratch spin is...

    Thank goodness the US still uses 6.0 for low levels...

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