Choreo step sequence and choreo spirals

[Firefly123]

Like I said with Australia, skaters don't even have to test to compete at a certain adult level. They just enter the division that they are doing relevant elements, regardless of the quality.

Applauding Australian system. Since program content is so harshly limited by level under the USFS adult system there really is no reason not to allow this.... Except loss in testing revenue and/or possibility of an adult with strong athletic skills "getting away" with poor edges, aka. skating skills, (as if jumps and spins on skates have noting to so with skating). (Sigh). But there you have it.

...there will always be unsatisfied people whatever the system is and you just can't win all

Yup.

P.S. If I ever skated under this system I'd definitely be one to take the Spiral Seq over the footwork any day.... Spirals very easy for me. Footwork, um, not so much....

Also, not sure why adults are so very concerned with quality... Kids do the items and then add the quality. You need a cake before you can put icing on it. No one lands perfect axels, does perfect flying camels etc. when they first do them. Sometime this takes years... Why not get the item, and then worry about the quality? I find this is one of the biggest problems with adult skaters and what really differs between them and the kids...

[overedge]

Also, not sure why adults are so very concerned with quality... Kids do the items and then add the quality. You need a cake before you can put icing on it. No one lands perfect axels, does perfect flying camels etc. when they first do them. Sometime this takes years... Why not get the item, and then worry about the quality? I find this is one of the biggest problems with adult skaters and what really differs between them and the kids...

You really don't get it, do you?

You don't "do the item and then add the quality". If you are not doing the item correctly to begin with, the quality is not going to magically appear later on. And your characterization of adults as being too concerned about quality to actually do the "item" shows that you obviously haven't spent a lot of time with adult skaters.

[C_T_T_]

With IJS and judging elements, I judge on an overall standard. I am not looking at the skater being an adult or a kid but just a skater and what they put out there. If a skater, being an adult or kid, does a good jump, they will be rewarded accordingly. You could say the skater earns their GOE, not the judge gives it to them. The ISU guidelines make it a lot clearer than the deduction sheets you used to have because it also has what you are looking for to get elements into a positive territory with GOEs. So you can have more consistency with overall judging.

I found judging under 6.0 you were more likely to look at a skater and give them marks based on what that they were good for the level rather than what they were doing. It is a placement system and there is so much more subjectivity with it.

Thanks for your reply. Thats what I thought. To me it seems perfectly natural that many adult skaters would be getting -goe for elements. I don't mean to offend anyone by that because I know there are many great adult skaters out there but I am recognising how difficult it is to get to that standard.

Like you said there is no way to make everyone happy with the system. COP wasn't designed with lower levels in mind whether thats adults or children. In the UK most lower competitions still use 6.0. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.

[Firefly123]

You really don't get it, do you?

No. I do not. If you mean I don't agree with you, then you are right. I don't.

You don't "do the item and then add the quality".

Are you kidding? No one does any skill with perfect quality the first time they try it. No one. That is what practice and repetition are for (under the guidance of a coach, of course.)

And your characterization of adults as being too concerned about quality to actually do the "item" shows that you obviously haven't spent a lot of time with adult skaters.

Actually, I see quite a few of them doing the same items....Trying to get them "perfect"....And never trying anything different or more complicated, (except footwork), or falling on a few attempts at harder jumps and then going back to the "safe" items because they are not "perfect" yet. For some, (Yes, I said some. Not all. Some.) adults it is a convenient excuse not to risk getting hurt. Most kids do not do this. They land a double one day and have to be stopped from trying a triple the next. (Of course I am "generalizing" ...but most of you can recognize the truth in this statement.) There is a difference. Sometimes I think that the adults use the standard of "quality" or "perfection" to mask a fear of falling or getting hurt. (An understandable fear which in an adult can lead to major health problems, financial difficulties etc.) My problem is the attitude of adults that the quality is so gosh darned important. Get the item first, then worry about the quality. It is nice to say a high quality single loop is worth more to you than a sloppy double, but this is also a way to "hide" from the double. With this attitude, I guarantee you that you will never do one..... But it will make you feel better about yourself for doing the single and then putting down people who can do the double who may not hold up to your "quality" standard.

[Artifice]

My problem is the attitude of adults that the quality is so gosh darned important. Get the item first, then worry about the quality. It is nice to say a high quality single loop is worth more to you than a sloppy double, but this is also a way to "hide" from the double. With this attitude, I guarantee you that you will never do one..... But it will make you feel better about yourself for doing the single and then putting down people who can do the double who may not hold up to your "quality" standard.

I get your point. Some skaters hide themselves behind the mask of quality when they know they can't go for higher level elements.
Actually it's normal to focus more on what can advantage us. For adult skaters quality on simplier moves are probably their best potential and this is right.
But when this fact has or/and hides jealousis, it's unfair to critic higher level elements just in order to minimize the performance of those who can do them.

That being said a minimum of quality is necessary to worth the try. Trying difficult things is ok but they should meet technical standards. If the result is a difficult move done without any technic nor quality, it's not worth much.
And unfortunately this problem happens sometimes with adult skaters.

Kids can do something not perfectly but they usually do quality technical tries, simply because they follow their coaches advises who most of the time give right advises.
Adult skaters sometimes coach themselves and believe they do right when it's actually not right.

[overedge]

Actually, I see quite a few of them doing the same items....Trying to get them "perfect"....And never trying anything different or more complicated, (except footwork), or falling on a few attempts at harder jumps and then going back to the "safe" items because they are not "perfect" yet. For some, (Yes, I said some. Not all. Some.) adults it is a convenient excuse not to risk getting hurt. Most kids do not do this. They land a double one day and have to be stopped from trying a triple the next. (Of course I am "generalizing" ...but most of you can recognize the truth in this statement.)

No, because it isn't true.

My problem is the attitude of adults that the quality is so gosh darned important. Get the item first, then worry about the quality. It is nice to say a high quality single loop is worth more to you than a sloppy double, but this is also a way to "hide" from the double. With this attitude, I guarantee you that you will never do one..... But it will make you feel better about yourself for doing the single and then putting down people who can do the double who may not hold up to your "quality" standard.

Your problem is that you have a completely warped view of what skating is about, and that the rest of the world doesn't share your "attitude" - which is apparently the rest of the world's problem and not yours. You don't understand that doing a single jump well is important to being able to do a double and/or a triple well. And you also don't seem to understand that a "high quality single loop" *can* be worth more than a sloppy double. And if you think that adult skaters get their jollies from putting down skaters with more advanced moves than them - well, that's only more evidence of how little time you have actually spent around adult skaters.

[Aussie Willy]

I think what Firefly is referring to is putting in elements that might not be quite right but they are in progress. Many skaters do this to test whether they can get the element in the program and give it a go because they have to do it some time, even if it isn't perfect.

For example a skater might be working on a double salchow. The actual technique might be reasonable, but they do take their time getting into the jump, it might be small and the landing might pull around. However that is not to say the skater shouldn't try the jump. But after that they work on it, it becomes more consistent, does achieve better quality and the skater has more success with it.

But I hear all sort of reasons from adults why they don't compete. One of the complaints is they want perfection. But it isn't a perfect world and I learnt a long time ago that I am never going to be perfect. I can only be the best I can be. So a skater who uses that as an excuse isn't going to get any sympathy from me.

Whenever an adult skater tells me that they are not very good, I tell them that at least they are getting out there are doing it. And I always take the opportunity to compliment them on when they have improved on something, whether it be a jump, a spin or even a mohawk.

[Artifice]

Totally agree with you Aussie willy.

Going for competition takes guts and everyone who does that deserve respect. Those who said that they will compete when they have the moves perfectly right are hiding themselves and their fear or pride behind the quality mask. Those who compete also work on quality but they show their work at the same time.

Agree about the fact to try an element in progress in competition. Nothing can be perfect at the very first try and there is always a first try.
Also one shouldn't be too presomptuous and try something that is too far from the minimum quality standard.
Double jumps are harder than simple jumps but a beautifull simple jump can also be harder to perform than a poor, sloppy underrotated double.
Quality is not that easy to perform. Even, sometimes those who praise quality over everything else can't even perform the quality they are aiming at. Usually someone who does a simple element with high quality has the level to at least try a higher difficulty. But someone who tries a high difficulty move does not automatically manage to perform quality on a simplier element.

There is a skater who has put some videos of her programs on internet. She tries double jumps but they are very sloppy, underrotated and done with bad technic. This skater was happy with her skate and did not understand why she received low scores. All her jumps were called as simple, she got deductions on her spins as well. And it was totally fair because obviously she did nothing at the minimum requested level. Clearly this skater has a wrong image of what she demonstrates and even of her real level which is not the one of double jumps but one of simple jumps not even quality ones.
So, to say that it is important to have an objective view of what one does in reality.

[Firefly123]

Whenever an adult skater tells me that they are not very good, I tell them that at least they are getting out there are doing it. And I always take the opportunity to compliment them on when they have improved on something, whether it be a jump, a spin or even a mohawk.

I so agree! Actually, I meant what I said as a compliment. I think many of the adult skaters I see at the rink are actually capable of much more difficult items, but are so hung up on the "quality" issue or simply don't believe in themselves that they don't seem to progress as far as the could.

This skater was happy with her skate and did not understand why she received low scores. All her jumps were called as simple, she got deductions on her spins as well. And it was totally fair because obviously she did nothing at the minimum requested level. Clearly this skater has a wrong image of what she demonstrates and even of her real level which is not the one of double jumps but one of simple jumps not even quality ones.
So, to say that it is important to have an objective view of what one does in reality.

I completely agree. In this case it is up to the skater/coach to choose whether or not to include more difficult (higher point) elements that are done poorly or to do the simpler items with more quality. That is an individual decision. Also, it depends upon the scoring system in place at the time. I have a video of the Olympics (2006?) where Scott Hamilton is commenting on Jeffery Buttle going for the quad even though he "knows he's gonna fall" but that if he makes the full 4 rotations it is worth some points....He fell, but rotated it. Got the bronze. USFS adult scoring system seems to reward quality overall, so maybe that strategy would be counterproductive for most adult skaters. I can't say. I skate ISI. ...... But you are right. If the skater is marked down,then they should be honest with themselves as to why. If I skated USFS I would throw in everything but the kitchen sink...Because that is my personality/philosophy etc....But if I came in last then I'd have to accept that because when you enter the competition you agree to be judged by that standard even if you don't like it.

[Aussie Willy]

Again I agree with Artifice and Firefly on adults doing stuff that is beyond them and then not understanding why they don't get the marks.

One adult commented to me about why she didn't get her axel counted when a coach had said to her that she had landed it. I told her that she had massive pre-rotation on the take off which meant she got no value for the element. I think sometimes skaters don't understand that is not just about landing the jump but the technique as a whole.

[overedge]

But this is not exclusively a problem with adult skaters. Using it as an excuse to bash adult skaters (not talking about your comments, Aussie Willy) is wrong, when younger skaters and their coaches and/or parents have the same problem.

[Artifice]

But if I came in last then I'd have to accept that because when you enter the competition you agree to be judged by that standard even if you don't like it.

Yep ! One should be responsible for one's decision on elements put in the program.
Honesty with oneself is important because, afterall, the adult skater is the one who cares the most about his/her result/improvment/skills.

[Aussie Willy]

But this is not exclusively a problem with adult skaters. Using it as an excuse to bash adult skaters (not talking about your comments, Aussie Willy) is wrong, when younger skaters and their coaches and/or parents have the same problem.

Oh it happens with everyone and I don't think anyone is using it as an excuse. Definately not just an adult skater issue.

Although I have to say when it comes to obsessiveness over detail and analysis over judging, I have found it a lot more with adults than parents, coaches or kids. As long as you can explain it, the parents and kids are quite happy with what you tell them. But some adults I have encountered will argue non-stop on the smallest point. And I say this as an adult skater myself.

[Firefly123]

Yep ! One should be responsible for one's decision on elements put in the program.
Honesty with oneself is important because, afterall, the adult skater is the one who cares the most about his/her result/improvment/skills.

Definitely. I was interested in this thread because,even though I don't skate USFS, it is fun to read what the other skaters think about the new spiral vs footwork sequence rules. Under ISI, for my level, I have to include one footwork sequence in the routine. Spirals are optional. I wish it were the other way around since I would definitely be in the "spiral" camp, but then those are the rules... (Not sure what the roll is for, but I like this emote, so I put it here. I guess it represents me rolling along the ice after tripping myself for the 1000th time on that darned footwork sequence.)

[Doubletoe]

Actually, I see quite a few of them doing the same items....Trying to get them "perfect"....And never trying anything different or more complicated, (except footwork), or falling on a few attempts at harder jumps and then going back to the "safe" items because they are not "perfect" yet. For some, (Yes, I said some. Not all. Some.) adults it is a convenient excuse not to risk getting hurt. Most kids do not do this. They land a double one day and have to be stopped from trying a triple the next. (Of course I am "generalizing" ...but most of you can recognize the truth in this statement.) There is a difference. Sometimes I think that the adults use the standard of "quality" or "perfection" to mask a fear of falling or getting hurt. (An understandable fear which in an adult can lead to major health problems, financial difficulties etc.) My problem is the attitude of adults that the quality is so gosh darned important. Get the item first, then worry about the quality. It is nice to say a high quality single loop is worth more to you than a sloppy double, but this is also a way to "hide" from the double. With this attitude, I guarantee you that you will never do one..... But it will make you feel better about yourself for doing the single and then putting down people who can do the double who may not hold up to your "quality" standard.

I agree that we adult skaters (as well as kid skaters) should try to learn new elements instead of just perfecting the ones we can already do. However, I do *not* advise attempting a jump in competition if it is consistently underrotated or takes off from the wrong edge. I also don't think a skater should attempt a spin in competition of he/she cannot achieve a position that will get credit, hold it for enough revolutions, or execute it well enough to avoid getting -2 GOE. Attempting a difficult element that one cannot execute well enough for full value is going to result in a lower technical score than doing simpler elements that one can get full value for. It's just math, not fear or perfectionism. And BTW, I know plenty of adults who are not perfectionists. If I had a dollar for every axel that finished the last half turn on the ice or every sit spin that looked more like a slight squat. . .

[misskarne]

The goal is not to get points with poor tries. This is not the purpose of the judging system.

Maybe someone oughta tell that to Patrick Chan.


*

This thread is honestly depressing. At 22, my coach thinks I could probably scrape into the regular competitions, but I know by the time I get my higher levels, I'll be Adult division.

My spirals will never be perfect. I'll be lucky if they ever get above the level of my hip. I've never been naturally flexible and trying to become flexible from scratch at my age is hard yards. But learning that suddenly, the height of my free leg could make or break my score, even if it is above my hip, is extremely discouraging.

I'm already at a disadvantage because I'm older. When I do my Aussie Skate tests, I'm automatically tested harder - because for anything involving a glide, the rule is you have to hold it for the length of your body, and most judges at my rink prefer two body lengths. A 22-year-old is much taller than a 7-year-old.

I work hard. I work very hard. I spend every minute I can spare doing some kind of work towards my skating, whether that be stretching during class, cutting it fine to work from practice, or going to practice every day.

I know I'll never be at the same level as I could have been had I started at 4. But I think I could never be as good as I am now, even at my low level, had I done that. I don't think I'd have been able to comprehend the amount of work, and taken it on so willingly, even two years ago.

It's depressing to know there are judges out there who will automatically never give me a positive GOE because I'm an adult. It's depressing to know that there are judges out there who will call me on underrotation or edges even if I didn't, just because I'm an adult. And it's depressing to know there are people out there who think I can never be anything in this sport, just because I'm an adult. You may not have said it, but you're thinking it.

But you know what? You can knock me down. I'll get back up. You score me badly, I'll try harder next time. I've fought too hard to get to this point, and I'll keep on fighting. If that means gritting my teeth and pretending a punching bag is a judge who'll never give me a positive GOE, so be it. My road may not lead to Sochi (as a skater at least), but I will control where it goes, and it's not going to the scrapheap.

[C_T_T_]

I'm already at a disadvantage because I'm older. When I do my Aussie Skate tests, I'm automatically tested harder - because for anything involving a glide, the rule is you have to hold it for the length of your body, and most judges at my rink prefer two body lengths. A 22-year-old is much taller than a 7-year-old.

But a 22 year old will have much more power than than a 7 year old so so it is prefectly fair to expect you to cover more ice.

It's depressing to know there are judges out there who will automatically never give me a positive GOE because I'm an adult. It's depressing to know that there are judges out there who will call me on underrotation or edges even if I didn't, just because I'm an adult.

Thats not what was said at all!!!! We are simply recognising how difficult it can be to get +GOE, no edge calls or underrotations. If you do it right, you'll get the credit.

And it's depressing to know there are people out there who think I can never be anything in this sport, just because I'm an adult. You may not have said it, but you're thinking it

.

Again absolutely not true! Most of here are adult skaters. We skate because we love the sport no matter what level we skate at. I skated as a child and have recently returned to the ice. I know how difficult it is trying to get back to a simillar to where a left off. I can't imagine starting from scratch at this age and the complete respect for anyone who takes it up later in life. There is a lady at my rink in her seventies who skates twice a week. She doesn't leve the barrier much unless a coach is with her but I think she is one of the most amazing skaters out there. I only hope I can still have the nerve to do something I love when I'm that age.

But you know what? You can knock me down. I'll get back up. You score me badly, I'll try harder next time. I've fought too hard to get to this point, and I'll keep on fighting. .... My road may not lead to Sochi (as a skater at least), but I will control where it goes, and it's not going to the scrapheap.

Good! For 99.9% of skaters out there, whether you start at 4 or 64, this is what its about. Only a tiny, tiny minority will make it to the top.

[Aussie Willy]

This thread is honestly depressing. At 22, my coach thinks I could probably scrape into the regular competitions, but I know by the time I get my higher levels, I'll be Adult division.

My spirals will never be perfect. I'll be lucky if they ever get above the level of my hip. I've never been naturally flexible and trying to become flexible from scratch at my age is hard yards. But learning that suddenly, the height of my free leg could make or break my score, even if it is above my hip, is extremely discouraging.

I'm already at a disadvantage because I'm older. When I do my Aussie Skate tests, I'm automatically tested harder - because for anything involving a glide, the rule is you have to hold it for the length of your body, and most judges at my rink prefer two body lengths. A 22-year-old is much taller than a 7-year-old.

I work hard. I work very hard. I spend every minute I can spare doing some kind of work towards my skating, whether that be stretching during class, cutting it fine to work from practice, or going to practice every day.

I know I'll never be at the same level as I could have been had I started at 4. But I think I could never be as good as I am now, even at my low level, had I done that. I don't think I'd have been able to comprehend the amount of work, and taken it on so willingly, even two years ago.

It's depressing to know there are judges out there who will automatically never give me a positive GOE because I'm an adult. It's depressing to know that there are judges out there who will call me on underrotation or edges even if I didn't, just because I'm an adult. And it's depressing to know there are people out there who think I can never be anything in this sport, just because I'm an adult. You may not have said it, but you're thinking it.

At 22 in Australia you can skate in adult divisions if you choose. But it is your decision.

However you are wrong to assume that judges don't give adult skaters positive GOEs. I have already made the point that judges will judge what they see. If a jump deserves a positive GOE the skater will get a positive GOE. If they don't they won't get it.

But don't blame the judges when they can only judge what the skaters put out there.

[Doubletoe]

My spirals will never be perfect. I'll be lucky if they ever get above the level of my hip. I've never been naturally flexible and trying to become flexible from scratch at my age is hard yards. But learning that suddenly, the height of my free leg could make or break my score, even if it is above my hip, is extremely discouraging.

I'm already at a disadvantage because I'm older. When I do my Aussie Skate tests, I'm automatically tested harder - because for anything involving a glide, the rule is you have to hold it for the length of your body, and most judges at my rink prefer two body lengths. A 22-year-old is much taller than a 7-year-old.

It's depressing to know there are judges out there who will automatically never give me a positive GOE because I'm an adult. It's depressing to know that there are judges out there who will call me on underrotation or edges even if I didn't, just because I'm an adult. And it's depressing to know there are people out there who think I can never be anything in this sport, just because I'm an adult. You may not have said it, but you're thinking it.

I saw just snippets of your post in others' responses before reading the original post, and now that I've read it, I actually laughed because I thought you were my age! At 22, all this talk of being too old comes off just a tad dramatic.
How is it that you have missed the many positive messages posted in this thread? I was never naturally flexible, either, but I did the splits for the first time at age 42, thanks to some determination and a consistent, correct stretching routine. That same year, I got a level 4 on my spiral sequence *with +GOE* in spite of my advanced "adulthood." I never get my jumps called as under rotated because they aren't. Then again, I don't put a jump in my program if my coach doesn't tell me it's fully rotated. The standards are the same for the adults and the kids. The kids get jumps called as underrotated, too!
You are 22. There is nothing you are too old for, and the only thing holding you back is your own doubt. It just takes hard work and time. . . and you have time!

[jjane45]

Natural fearlessness also matters, I am not likely to experiment the crazy footwork my friend puts together just for fun (or landing axels on his own without lessons). But yes, at age 22 there is really tons of time unless your goal is becoming an elite skater landing triple jumps. Add persistence and determination, there is your recipe for success!