Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 41 to 53 of 53
  1. #41
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    11,069
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    Judges never stop learing and perfecting their role in competition, no matter how long they have been judging.
    Especially since the judging system is still relatively new and is ALWAYS changing.

  2. #42
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    12,256
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    What can we do ?
    We, as fans, want to watch practices. How would you justify that the judges would be the only one excluded from practices ?
    Anyway, Figure Skating is a sport where every body talks about others. So, even if the judges don't watch practices, they hear things about skaters.
    It's better that they made their own opinion.

  3. #43
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    556
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    I have found some of the comments here quite interesting. But being a judge I think it is a unfair for people to suggest that judges should not attend practises. I know being from Australia, if I went to Worlds, I would sit in on as many practises as possible because I just don't get to see skating of that calibre. And of course I would want to see a Chan or Takahashi in practise just for excitement of seeing those skaters live. Doesn't matter if it is practise or competition. It is just great seeing great skating.

    As part of all the printing for a competition, you print off sets of sheets for the Technical Panel for practises. It is part of their homework before the event so they can see the order of elements. Sometimes what skaters submit as Planned Program Content is not what they do in their performances. If you sat in on a Technical Panel doing data entry then you would see how it works.

    Also for many judges, attending practises is part of the learning experience. If you are learning to judge ice dance or pairs and don't get to see it much live, then it is a valuable opportunity to get closer to it. Judges are generally using the opportunity to do homework.

    As for judges talking to skaters from their home countries, most judges and skaters know each other really well. The skaters appreciate having the judges there just because they are a familiar face. Also judges can be team leaders at Worlds so they are actually part of the skater's team support. That is why you might see them by the barrier. However they doesn't impact how the judge does their job when it comes to judging.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    But some people are so ready to shoot judges down for the slightest reason they don't really care what someone is trying to say.
    AussieWillie, your comments, coming from an actual judge, mean a great deal. I would hope, and I believe that nearly all judges share your love for the sport. Afterall, being a figure skating judge isn't exactly a pathway to wealth, and potentially being in the crossfire of controversy and debate goes with the territory to some degree....not what most of us would volunteer for.

    There are no rules against it, and the "culture" of figure skating apparently accepts the fact that judges attend practices. Who can blame the judges for wanting to attend practices for all the reasons you've listed? If any of the rest of us were in the same position, can we say that we wouldn't do the same thing?

    IMO, some people's "shoot the judges" tone is a mostly a blunt expression of their frustration with what they see as the sport's incomplete response to the issue of bias and subjectivity...issues that hold back FS's acceptance as a "real" sport in the minds of some of the public and media, although it's hard to say to what degree anymore....maybe those days have passed more than we think.
    OTOH, if the comments on this board are any indication, those issues bother a lot of FS fans and regular participants.
    Trusting "the system" is a real issue to some fans, and judges are part of "the system".
    It's understandable that some people are uncomfortable when judges attend practice sessions and appear to be putting their eventual objectivity to the test. Appearances can be damaging, even though nothing improper is actually happening.
    As a judge, this is what you get for your dedication to the sport and trying to make it better, ....lucky you, huh?

    One thing that I didn't read here yet is differentiating between judges attending practices of skaters whose competition they are about to judge and generally attending practices when they they don't have that immediate role.
    We can't expect judges to crawl into a cave and not ever watch as a fan.
    Until someone presents hard evidence to the contrary, IMO the vast majority of judges do the best they can to separate their human subjectivity and ability to formulate a bias (which we all have) from their official duties as a judge when the time comes.

  4. #44
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    “It is far more important to have a good judge than a possible conflict of interest." - Ottavio Cinquanta
    Posts
    1,583
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    You really didn't read my post did you? I mentioned the word "learning" and "homework" when it comes to watching practises. Doesn't matter the level of skating, you can still learn a lot from watching any skater. But if they are best in the world, then that is probably one of the best learning opportunities.

    But some people are so ready to shoot judges down for the slightest reason they don't really care what someone is trying to say.
    I was agreeing with you.

  5. #45

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Top Secret FSU Witness Protection Location
    Age
    31
    Posts
    20,622
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    15753
    I see both sides of the argument on this one and I am not sure that one is better than the other.
    -Brian
    "Michelle would never be caught with sausage grease staining her Vera Wang." - rfisher

  6. #46

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Age
    47
    Posts
    17,726
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    15832
    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    I was agreeing with you.
    Well it really didn't come across that way. Particularly when you start making comments about doing it for pleasure. You make it sound like judges don't really take it that seriously.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  7. #47

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Age
    47
    Posts
    17,726
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    15832
    Quote Originally Posted by duane View Post
    And Aussie, you didn't at all address the issue of judges giving advice/pointers based on what they see in the practices (advice which is given to improve a skater's chances of winning). It isn't mandatory for a judge to give advice to skaters at the practices, and one can't help but think that any given advice is selective--given only to skaters who a judge (for whatever reason) more favor. As said earlier, favoritism has been going on in this sport for years. Why make it worse?
    If you read my comments, I said that judges are generally team leaders so they are there as part of the country's team. I made no reference to providing pointers to skaters or coaching them.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  8. #48

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Age
    52
    Posts
    10,243
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    10899
    Ideally, all judges would be perfectly knowledgeable about all aspects of skating technique and presentation criteria and perfectly naive about the past history of all skaters they will ever judge.

    That can never happen unless you can wipe the slate clean after every competition and make sure that no judge who has ever seen skater X skate in the past will ever judge skater X in the future. How could that possibly be arranged?

    How can a judge learn how to judge skating without judging real live skaters? And trial-judging real live skaters at the next level above where they're already certified to judge?

  9. #49
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    209
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    If you read my comments, I said that judges are generally team leaders so they are there as part of the country's team. I made no reference to providing pointers to skaters or coaching them.
    That's interesting. I had no idea. And as a relative newbie to the sport, a little disturbing. Why wouldn't ISU certify judges, making sure there is representation globally, and then the ISU judges would judge the international competitions? No one would know who would be the judges until they arrive at the competition. ISU would pull from a qualified pool at random, and the judges would be separated from skaters and coaches until after the competiton. (And judges would have names in an event, not J1, J2, etc.) It would take the potential of nationalistic bias out of the judging scene. Although I'm sure from reading your posts for awhile that you personally are a wonderful skating fan, and a great judge, the optics of this sort of thing are just not good. How can a judge also be a country's team lead? As a team lead, judges would naturally develop relationships with coaches and athletes, and it would only be natural for some bias to seep into decisions. Maybe in most cases if works fine, but to someone not familiar to the sport looking in, it just looks very, very wrong. To me, judging should be about what is in the competition, not practises or reputation. The point of CoP was to provide a robust, unbiased approach to awarding marks and awarding winners. It's not perfect, but definitely an improvement. I would think segregating judges from athletes and coaches, and ensuring everything is seen to be above board and unbiased would be appropriate. If athletes and coaches want more feedback, why not wait until after the competition is over, and then schedule feedback meetings for more detail with a tech specialist and a more experienced judge?

  10. #50
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    “It is far more important to have a good judge than a possible conflict of interest." - Ottavio Cinquanta
    Posts
    1,583
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Well it really didn't come across that way. Particularly when you start making comments about doing it for pleasure. You make it sound like judges don't really take it that seriously.
    But you are the one who said that you like watching skating practices or competitions for the excitement of seeing great skating, not to judge. That doesn't mean you aren't a serious judge. I never said OR insinuated that. It is good that you like watching skaters just to watch and not to judge. I was agreeing with everything you said.

  11. #51

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Infected with the joy of skating!!
    Posts
    10,394
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    7844
    Watching practices is one of the most fun aspects of seeing a competition live. Although we love to hate those who judge at the highest level, Judges give a lot to the sport and it would be unfair to deny them such a vital part of the experience.

    Also, it's pretty much impossible to make a full, comprehensive and fair assessment of someone's technique in real time, with only one opportunity to see that particular skill. I've always felt that skaters who didn't want judges at practice were ones who had dodgy technique.

    I hate the idea of pre-judging as much as anyone, but there are good reasons for judges to be a practice, too.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  12. #52
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    556
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    Watching practices is one of the most fun aspects of seeing a competition live. Although we love to hate those who judge at the highest level, Judges give a lot to the sport and it would be unfair to deny them such a vital part of the experience.

    I hate the idea of pre-judging as much as anyone, but there are good reasons for judges to be a practice, too.

    We "love to hate those who judge at the highest level"? ....oh, I hope not, and that you're speaking only for yourself, or just kidding

    Judges attend practices for a number of good reasons (the enjoyment of watching great skating being a perfectly good reason, too).
    But it has some unintended consequences (creating mistrust among some fans).

    As a sport, figure skating has accepted those consequences because:

    1) It can't afford to create and maintain a full-time pool of totally arms-length judging panels
    2) There is no verifiable evidence that the judge's practice attendance affects the overall competitive outcome in a way that is net negative(bias/objectivity)
    vs. positive(increased judging competence/skill, education of skaters).

    This thread has been very enlightening.
    I was dead set against the way things are, but I can see both sides of the issue now, especially if there is no affordable alternative.

    -
    Last edited by geod2; 02-22-2011 at 02:45 AM.

  13. #53

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Age
    47
    Posts
    17,726
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    15832
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    That's interesting. I had no idea. And as a relative newbie to the sport, a little disturbing. Why wouldn't ISU certify judges, making sure there is representation globally, and then the ISU judges would judge the international competitions? No one would know who would be the judges until they arrive at the competition. ISU would pull from a qualified pool at random, and the judges would be separated from skaters and coaches until after the competiton. (And judges would have names in an event, not J1, J2, etc.) It would take the potential of nationalistic bias out of the judging scene. Although I'm sure from reading your posts for awhile that you personally are a wonderful skating fan, and a great judge, the optics of this sort of thing are just not good. How can a judge also be a country's team lead? As a team lead, judges would naturally develop relationships with coaches and athletes, and it would only be natural for some bias to seep into decisions. Maybe in most cases if works fine, but to someone not familiar to the sport looking in, it just looks very, very wrong. To me, judging should be about what is in the competition, not practises or reputation. The point of CoP was to provide a robust, unbiased approach to awarding marks and awarding winners. It's not perfect, but definitely an improvement. I would think segregating judges from athletes and coaches, and ensuring everything is seen to be above board and unbiased would be appropriate. If athletes and coaches want more feedback, why not wait until after the competition is over, and then schedule feedback meetings for more detail with a tech specialist and a more experienced judge?
    Because of the cost, judges can get used as team leaders because they are already going to be at the event. And particularly with a country like Australia, we just can't afford to pay for specialist team leaders to go. It is really that basic.

    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    But you are the one who said that you like watching skating practices or competitions for the excitement of seeing great skating, not to judge. That doesn't mean you aren't a serious judge. I never said OR insinuated that. It is good that you like watching skaters just to watch and not to judge. I was agreeing with everything you said.
    Okay I understand now - thanks. Sorry to be snippy.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •