Cheated bracket = three turn?

[jjane45]

Hello all, I am really curious about a question here. To experienced eyes, in what circumstances can a RFI bracket (cheated with some edge issues) skated on a curve be mistaken for a RF? 3-turn?

In this situation the observer is 4 feet from the skater on clean ice with unblocked view, the skater attempted the bracket about 3 times and those were called 3-turns. The skater is later told that "the difference between a bracket & a 3-turn can be as small as a change of edge", is this statement justified and would it cause a RFI bracket be identified as RF? 3-turn? Would the situation change if instead of RFI it was LFO?

Your help is greatly appreciated!

[Sierra]

It's common to switch edge, which makes it a 3turn. A RFI bracket should stay on the RFI edge, exit on a RBO, and rotate to the right. If you switch edge, it would be a RFO 3turn. If you rotate the wrong way, then it would be a RFI 3turn since RFI 3turns rotate to the left. Did you rotate the wrong way?

The diff between 3s and brackets is that 3s rotate into the curve and brackets counterrotate. The only way your RFI bracket could have been called as a RFI 3 would be if you stayed on the RFI edge and rotated the wrong way, since usually cheated brackets are cheated because they went to the wrong edge.

[jjane45]

It was definitely confusing. If I am stating things really ignorant please correct me

The bracket was turned in the correct direction and stayed on its intended curve. For it to be RFO 3-turn, wouldn't it end up on a different curve? Or only the very top of the turn mattered and then it cheated back to the correct curve?

Guess I am very confused about how brackets are cheated.

[aster]

Brackets and 3-turns both stay on the same curve. Both start and end on opposite edges. The only difference between the two turns is that brackets turn away from the circle, 3-turns turn into the circle. Here is a very good page for visualizing the difference between them.

Edit: I see what you're asking now. If it's a cheated bracket, it does become a 3-turn. The 3-turn is on what was intended as the turn (cusp) of the bracket -- it is then a different direction (rotation) than an intentional 3-turn on the larger curve would be. The entire move would be (for intended RFI bracket): RFI inside edge, change to out RFO 3-turn, change to RBO edge.

[ioana]

Is it possible the turns didn't happen at the top of the circle? If you wait too long for the bracket turn for a RFI, you could end up on a RBI instead of RBO and then 'pull' your edge back. The turn itself would look like a 3turn, more than a bracket, though.

[jjane45]

Actually a true RFI bracket is never on the same curve as a true RFO 3 turn, as the former goes from RFI to RBO, the latter from RFO to RBI. My question about "different curve after the turn" was bad.

It's common to switch edge, which makes it a 3turn.

I meant to ask if this refers to the very cusp of the "bracket" and the seemingly RFI entry edge and RBO exit edge are irrelevant, hence making it a cheated bracket.

Sorry again for the confusion. I am trying to sort through the arrows from aster's link.

[jjane45]

Is it possible the turns didn't happen at the top of the circle? If you wait too long for the bracket turn for a RFI, you could end up on a RBI instead of RBO and then 'pull' your edge back. The turn itself would look like a 3turn, more than a bracket, though.

I believe it turned at the top of the circle but can't claim the tracing was 100% symmetric. Is this how brackets are usually cheated?

[aster]

Actually a true RFI bracket is never on the same curve as a true RFO 3 turn, as the former goes from RFI to RBO, the latter from RFO to RBI. My question about "different curve after the turn" was bad.

Yes, a RFI bracket isn't on the same curve as a RFO 3-turn -- it's on the same curve as a RFI 3-turn. Essentially, these are the same turn in terms of edges, but the skater's body rotates in different directions to switch from forward to backward.

Looking at the link -- imagine the turn at the top of the circle (the part where the bracket actually happens) gets larger. It's pretty easy to see in that drawing because the turn itself is pretty large and you can start to see where the change of edge would happen (in fact that drawing isn't the cleanest of brackets). In that case, the "turn" becomes a very small outside 3-turn (on an opposite circle to the one the bracket was intended to be on). If you're still having trouble seeing it, look at the bracket sideways (in this case, from the left -- turn your whole computer if need be), and see if that helps you see the 3-turn.

[Debbie S]

Out of curiosity, is this something a judge told you, like in a comment on a test paper? If so, why don't you ask your/your child's coach? He/she saw the turns and is in the best position to explain the comment. It's hard for a bunch of people online who didn't see the turn to try to figure out what you're asking and give you the answer you are looking for.

[jjane45]

Thank you Debbie S, it's a dispute with no witness. Not sure if the exact turn could be duplicated weeks later, and now I am really curious about the mechanics behind cheated and proper brackets. Thank you everyone for your help!!

Following aster's tip I flipped the 3 turn and wow it is indeed very similar to the bracket's cusp, shape and arrows etc. Image here. So what qualifies the turn a proper bracket based on this? Reasonably small cusp = RFI bracket and larger cusp = cheated by doing an RFO3? Sorry again if I am not seeing the obvious...

[minx]

If I skated forward on my right foot on a flat and turned my body in a clockwise direction, and continued in a straight line the turn could be called either a RFI bracket or a RFO three turn. It's common to see test sheets say "brackets turned on flats".

[Debbie S]

If I skated forward on my right foot on a flat and turned my body in a clockwise direction, and continued in a straight line the turn could be called either a RFI bracket or a RFO three turn. It's common to see test sheets say "brackets turned on flats".

Yes, that's the key - in order for any turn to be valid, it has to be done on proper edges. If you are on the correct edge and the turn is done at the top of the lobe, then the correct shape of the turn will follow. There are body and free foot alignment issues which can prevent a skater from achieving the correct edge either before or after the turn, which a coach can point out and correct. And for some skaters, it just takes a while to really feel the edge and stay on it - need to really push and bend the ankle. It's best to focus on proper movement and execution and not on what various parts of the turn look like on the ice.

Jjane, I'm not sure why you are so obsessed with this "dispute". I'm getting the impression the comment was made by someone other than a coach or a judge. In skating, there are many comments made by other skaters and parents and a lot of it isn't worth listening to. Focus on your child's own training and what her coaches say.

[jjane45]

Taking it to the PM with Debbie S, it's part of an official complaint about many things, this actually being a minor point. My original assertion this is proven wrong as many of you graciously pointed out cheated brackets can indeed be 3s (RFO3, not RFI3), thank you very, very much.

I do think cheated bracket is a topic worthy of discussion, especially hearing how frequent beginners commit this sin. Your thoughts on this question, assuming the turn was not on a flat?

Following aster's tip I flipped the 3 turn and wow it is indeed very similar to the bracket's cusp, shape and arrows etc. Image here. So what qualifies the turn a proper bracket based on this? Reasonably small cusp = RFI bracket and larger cusp = cheated by doing an RFO3? Sorry again if I am not seeing the obvious...

Thank you very much again!

[leafygreens]

If a bracket and 3 turn are both done correctly on a circle, I don't see how they could be mistaken for each other!

[jjane45]

From what I understand, the edges of RFI bracket were cheated such that at the very cusp a RFO three-turn happened. The body position is a possible clue, as well as the tracing.

[luenatic]

From what I understand, the edges of RFI bracket were cheated such that at the very cusp a RFO three-turn happened. The body position is a possible clue,

The body is a BIG give away. To do a proper bracket, one usually (if not always) enters the turn in a 'counter' position. I probably can spot that 100 ft away.

[Spazactaz]

judges are the WORST for saying this!!!!!!!!!!!

unless you're changing BOTH edges in the turn (i've never seen even the worst skaters do this)...... a bracket CANNOT turn into a 3turn......

if you're doing RFI....... you start on that edge, end up on RBO........ so say you changed to RFO..... then it would turn into a ROCKER. not a 3turn.

[vesperholly]

judges are the WORST for saying this!!!!!!!!!!!

unless you're changing BOTH edges in the turn (i've never seen even the worst skaters do this)...... a bracket CANNOT turn into a 3turn......

if you're doing RFI....... you start on that edge, end up on RBO........ so say you changed to RFO..... then it would turn into a ROCKER. not a 3turn.

If the skater starts out on RFI, then switches to RFO, does a turn that ends on an inside edge, then switches to an outside edge, that is indeed a cheated bracket turned into a 3-turn. I've seen it with my own two eyes.

[Spazactaz]

yes that is true... but i never see that happen even with people learning brackets on the first day. and ESPECIALLY when they are taking a test which requires brackets..... it's usually that first edge leading in (worst on fwd outside brackets.......) that they switch the edge, but it's pretty easy to maintain the 2nd curve so brackets almost always turn into rockers... barely anyone seems to realize this though lol.

[jjane45]

Sorry my opening post was about a group lesson coach first teaching brackets, the incident itself is not important anymore though.

Thank you very much for bringing up the discussion of rocker vs. 3 turn. How will body positions differ in that case?