Choreo step sequence and choreo spirals

[hanca]

I can't find anywhere any information on choreo step sequence and choreo spirals. Where do I find this info?

I seem to remember that both those don't have levels, only GOE, but that's all I know. What are the rules about choreo step sequence and choreo spirals?

How many spirals needs to be in choreo spirals and for how long to hold them? How do I increase the GOE if I wanted let's say plus 3 on this? (always modest! )

What does the choreo step sequence need to contact and how to increase the GOE?

Thank you very much.

[C_T_T_]

Your choroeo spirals need to be held for 6 seconds in total, so you can do either 2 for 3 seconds each or one for 6 seconds. I'm not sure I've ever seen a check list for GOE on spirals but you'll want good clean deep edges, good position (not nessecarily ultra flexible but with your back arched, leg fully extended etc) and good speed.

This is from the ISU technical rules

For Senior Men the second (in the order of execution) step sequence will always be awarded a fixed Base Value and evaluated by Judges in GOE only. This sequence can have any pattern while fully utilizing the ice surface.

Spiral Sequences (Senior Ladies)
Spiral sequence consists primarily of spirals.
A Spiral is a position with one blade on the ice and the free leg (including knee and foot) higher than the hip level. Spiral positions are classified according to the skating leg (right, left), edge (outside, inside), direction (forward, backward) or position of the free leg (backward, forward, sideways).
There must be at least two (2) spiral positions not less than three (3) seconds long each or only one (1) spiral position not less than six (6) seconds long. In case this requirement is not fulfilled, the spiral sequence will have no value.
The Spiral Sequence will always be awarded a fixed Base Value and evaluated by Judges in GOE only.

ETA: I tell I lie....from ISU communication 1611 referring to GOE

Step Sequences

1) good energy and execution
2) good speed or acceleration during sequence
3) good clarity and precision
4) deep clean edges (including entry and exit of all turns)
5) good control and commitment of whole body to accuracy of steps
6) creativity and originality
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

Spiral
Sequences
1) good flow, energy and execution
2) good speed during sequence
3) good body line and full extension
4) minimal delay between spiral positions
5) good flexibility
6) creativity and originality
7) ability to attain positions and variations quickly and effortlessly
8) element matched to the musical structure

[hanca]

What I don't understand, is:
In adult skating there is the requirement "one choreo spirals or choreo step sequence". Why should any adult bother to try to learn any harder steps, if you can do one nice spiral, hold it for 6 seconds and have the same amount of points? (and if by any chance the adult is quite flexible and the spiral has nice lines, speed and good edge, it may even have better GOE than the choreo step sequence would have).

Is it just me or does it look like much easier option for the same amount of points? Doing 6 seconds of choreo spiral also takes less time than doing the choreo step sequence, so there will be more time to deal with the other elements...

[overedge]

What I don't understand, is:
In adult skating there is the requirement "one choreo spirals or choreo step sequence". Why should any adult bother to try to learn any harder steps, if you can do one nice spiral, hold it for 6 seconds and have the same amount of points? (and if by any chance the adult is quite flexible and the spiral has nice lines, speed and good edge, it may even have better GOE than the choreo step sequence would have).

Is it just me or does it look like much easier option for the same amount of points? Doing 6 seconds of choreo spiral also takes less time than doing the choreo step sequence, so there will be more time to deal with the other elements...

Because some older and/or less flexible adults can't get their free leg higher than their hip, or hold it there for six seconds. Or can't do a nice looking spiral even if they can get their leg high enough. Having a step sequence as an alternative lets those adults gain the points that they would lose if they couldn't do a spiral.

[C_T_T_]

I wasn't aware of that. For some people though a spiral would be harder. Many, well some, adults wouldn't have the flexibility to do really good spirals so for some a step sequence would be the easier choice. I could do an ok spiral but I could do a much much better step sequence. I'm not sure exactly what you would need to include in a step sequence at that level but since it isn't being assessed by levels I suppose there is no reason to include harder steps. I guess what it comes down to is COP wasn't designed with adults skaters in mind and in my opinion adult skating can never really be a level playing ground as everyone will have to skating at different times, thorugh difeerent routes.

[hanca]

Well, my spiral is not beautiful either, I think it is just 'ok'. But I noticed last year in adult competitions they very rarely gave positive GOE for step sequence anyway, more often it was around 0 GOE, so although my spiral is nothing special, I don't think my steps would receive more points if the judges are reluctant to go to positive GOE. So I am just wondering why bother with steps. It seems to me that the skaters here go quite frequently for steps because it is the requirements for tests, but in competition there is the choice now...

[C_T_T_]

Well perhaps in your case you would do better with the spiral and don't need to bother with steps. I've never been to an adult competition so can't really judge but assuming I was doing a step seq of mainly mowhawks and 3turns (if we're not being graded on difficulty why make things harder) I would like to think I could hit about half of those bullet points. If I did spirals, I might beable to do them with speed and flow but my leg just about being parallel to the ice and more than likely being bent would negate that. So different strokes for different folks. If your getting the choice make it work for you.

[LLOS]

I recently did my first competition under COP, it was fun to know how they judge my program. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNB4m1BrodA I did both step and spiral sequence, I like doing both very much so I included both but only steps had points. I got -1 GOE but I thought I did it well exept an unnessesary extra step, maybe thats was the minus. They do give levels and it was 1 of course, no clue what level 2 would be, maybe an adult can't do it? I don't know if I can do spirals better but I can hold them any time needed und above hip level. Unfortunately an 1.40min program doesn't allow such long time elements otherwise I would need to remove other elements, to fit everything in 1.40 is very difficult

How many points would I get for a spiral sequence?

[Aussie Willy]

Well, my spiral is not beautiful either, I think it is just 'ok'. But I noticed last year in adult competitions they very rarely gave positive GOE for step sequence anyway, more often it was arounf 0 GOE, so although my spiral is nothing special, I don't think my steps would receive more points if they the judges are reluctant to go to positive GOE. So I am just wondering why bother with steps. It seems to me that the skaters here go quite frequently for steps because it is the requirements for tests, but in competition there is the choice now...

From a judging perspective, I have very rarely given an adult skater a +1 in anything. I think for an adult to get base value is actually pretty good because it means they are doing elements that you can't deduct on and they are competently completed.

As for having the option of steps or spirals, I would much rather do steps. I do a crap spiral but my steps are okay. It is up to you.

But I also think if the steps work well with the music, then it might add to the PCS in terms of the interpretation and choreography (that is if they skater does the steps to the music). And good quality steps can also enhance the Skating Skills PCS. So I think there are a couple of strategies that a skater can use steps to help boost their marks in other areas.

[frbskate63]

The other thing for adults to bear in mind when choosing steps or spirals is that with steps, unless you fall or fail to cover enough ice (which is only half the rink at bronze and silver level), steps will almost always meet the minimum requirement to be counted. Whereas it's extremly easy to have a wobble on a spiral that means it's not held in the required position for long enough, so doesn't get counted. I have seen a lot of adult spiral sequences get no level, but it's very rare on steps.

[Artifice]

From a judging perspective, I have very rarely given an adult skater a +1 in anything. I think for an adult to get base value is actually pretty good because it means they are doing elements that you can't deduct on and they are competently completed.

Probably it can be due to the fact that some adult skaters really don't deserve +1 but I also believe that judges are harder with adult skaters because they just don't think an adult skater can deserve a +1 eventhough the element itself is good enough to get a +1. Simply a matter of preconcieved idea...
Whereas some very young skaters get easily +1 eventhough their element is objectively not better than an adult who would do the same thing but without any positive GOE.

[Stormy]

From a judging perspective, I have very rarely given an adult skater a +1 in anything. I think for an adult to get base value is actually pretty good because it means they are doing elements that you can't deduct on and they are competently completed.

I am glad you're not a judge around here. I've gotten +1 and (gasp!) +2 on elements and I am certainly not an outstanding adult skater. Do you honestly not see adult skaters doing elements worthy of +1 in anything? What levels are you judging?

[jp1andonly]

We have adult skaters in canada getting +1 and +2. last year when you could get levels of spirals we had lots of level 2, and some level 3s as well....

Probably it can be due to the fact that some adult skaters really don't deserve +1 but I also believe that judges are harder with adult skaters because they just don't think an adult skater can deserve a +1 eventhough the element itself is good enough to get a +1. Simply a matter of preconcieved idea...
Whereas some very young skaters get easily +1 eventhough their element is objectively not better than an adult who would do the same thing but without any positive GOE.

[hanca]

We don't have that frequently adult skaters getting positive GOE, only rarely.

This is the results of our british adult championships, if you want to look at the protocols:

http://www.johnds.org/BAC_11/

From looking at the protocols you would think how badly the skaters skated, but when watching the DVD, it is not any worse than skaters from USA and Canada, so I assume that the judging is much stricter here.

[C_T_T_]

We don't have that frequently adult skaters getting positive GOE, only rarely.

This is the results of our british adult championships, if you want to look at the protocols:

http://www.johnds.org/BAC_11/

From looking at the protocols you would think how badly the skaters skated, but when watching the DVD, it is not any worse than skaters from USA and Canada, so I assume that the judging is much stricter here.

Yeah I was just looking at that. It wouldn't inspire me to want to go there, how depressing to get that back afterwards.

[hanca]

Yeah I was just looking at that. It wouldn't inspire me to want to go there, how depressing to get that back afterwards.

It was actually worse last year. Nearly whole bronze category did not have their jumps called at all!

[Aussie Willy]

I am glad you're not a judge around here. I've gotten +1 and (gasp!) +2 on elements and I am certainly not an outstanding adult skater. Do you honestly not see adult skaters doing elements worthy of +1 in anything? What levels are you judging?

It probably is the standard of skating. Adults don't have to do tests here to compete in the Adult divisions in Australia. They enter the division of choice based on what elements they plan to do. So you get a really mixed bag of competency in any division.

But maybe you are just doing your elements really well and being justifiably rewarded.

ETA - you can check out the results for the Adult Demonstration Event at Australian Nationals - http://www.isa.org.au/Results/2010_Demo/results.htm. I was Judge No 3. But you can see that it was a pretty consistent panel.

[jjane45]

Insightful thread! And very surprised how much judging standards differ from region to region...

[hanca]

I don't think it is the standart of skating. Here the adults do the same tests as children, and most of the adults have passed their jumps in tests, and then the jumps were not called at the competition (especially last year nearly everyone in bronze category).

http://www.johnds.org/BAC_10/BACDay2html/index.htm


This year the rules for underrotation changed; if you look at the protocols (see the link in my previous post), it seems to me that they did not bother with <, they went straight for <<. Although I do agree that someone may underrotate more than half of the revolution, I don't believe that every skater who underrotated was underrotating more than half of revolution. So I think the judging here is a bit suspect.

As a result, the skater would not get even something very tiny for the jump, they would get 0 for the jump. I haven't skated in this competition this year, so it is not like if I am upset about my results and therefore screaming that it is unfair... but I do find it fascinating that, in my opinion, the adults are here judged much more harshly than children. In fact, the value of the PCS is what wins you the competition at the lower levels. It seems to me that if you send a dancer to compete at free skating and the dancer will get 0 for all four jumps elements, she still would be able to win it based on two spins, step sequence and PCS. I think that's wrong. Why bother with the jumps then?

[LLOS]

I wonder if it would be better to adjust the COP system to adult skaters so that one can work on getting more points, the levels would not rise at all.

If an adult gets in components a 2, is that already considered as good?