Lutz and flip edges at U.S. Nationals

[Screenie]

My general thoughts: I wish this whole edge-craze would go away. Between the skater with the proper edges and the skater without, I prefer.... the better skater which has nothing to do with either. Michelle Kwan, Sasha Cohen, Irina Slutskaya, Sarah Hughes, Nicole Bobek, Tara Lipinski --- I love them all and don't really care what edge they're on. It's also mostly just habit and not anything innately more difficult -- e.g. if you asked Mike Weiss to take off an inside edge on his lutz, he wouldn't think it's easier, he'd think it's harder, just like MK would have a harder time of the opposite.

Anyway, please wake me in 20 years when people no longer care about the edges.

[leafygreens]

My general thoughts: I wish this whole edge-craze would go away. Between the skater with the proper edges and the skater without, I prefer.... the better skater which has nothing to do with either. Michelle Kwan, Sasha Cohen, Irina Slutskaya, Sarah Hughes, Nicole Bobek, Tara Lipinski --- I love them all and don't really care what edge they're on. It's also mostly just habit and not anything innately more difficult -- e.g. if you asked Mike Weiss to take off an inside edge on his lutz, he wouldn't think it's easier, he'd think it's harder, just like MK would have a harder time of the opposite.

Anyway, please wake me in 20 years when people no longer care about the edges.

Bravo. I think that the edge call is another way for judges to pigeon-hole skaters whom they don't want to reach the upper echelons, like boosting the artistic mark. For skaters like Mirai who have a reputation now as a "!" mark skater, she will be looked at with much more scrutiny than others, whether she deserves it or not. I agree with the person that said a "true triple lutz" is nearly impossible to do. Most skaters WITH correct edge calls look like they're doing it incorrectly. It's too wishy washy of an area to hold so much importance with scoring. If it's that darn important, then there need to be ice-level cameras in all four corners of the arena.

[Jenna]

Well, I actually think that take off edges are important...I mean why should someone like Rochette and Ando who worked to fix their edges receive the same values as notorious flutzeres such as Asada and Murakami? These jumps were invented years ago, and I believe credit should be given to those who perform them correctly.

And there are plenty of skaters who can do a very good "true lutz" and always have..Kim, Kostner, Czisny, Slutskaya, Sokolova**, Lepisto, Phaneuf, Sebestyen, Tuktamysheva, Meier...all of these women and many more can perform correct lutzes.

[oleada]

Well, I actually think that take off edges are important...I mean why should someone like Rochette and Ando who worked to fix their edges receive the same values as notorious flutzeres such as Asada and Murakami? These jumps were invented years ago, and I believe credit should be given to those who perform them correctly.

And there are plenty of skaters who can do a very good "true lutz" and always have..Kim, Kostner, Czisny, Sotnikova, Lepisto, Phaneuf, Sebestyen, Tuktamysheva, Meier...all of these women and many more can perform correct lutzes.

ITA

[Triple Butz]

Well, I actually think that take off edges are important...I mean why should someone like Rochette and Ando who worked to fix their edges receive the same values as notorious flutzeres such as Asada and Murakami? These jumps were invented years ago, and I believe credit should be given to those who perform them correctly.

And there are plenty of skaters who can do a very good "true lutz" and always have..Kim, Kostner, Czisny, Sotnikova, Lepisto, Phaneuf, Sebestyen, Tuktamysheva, Meier...all of these women and many more can perform correct lutzes.

[Jenna]

OOPS! I meant to say Sokolova!!!

[muffinbiscuit]

Great lutz entry

[Triple Butz]

OOPS! I meant to say Sokolova!!!

Ah!

How many of those ladies have a true flip, though?

In terms of doing both (triple) flip and lutz jumps correctly, I can only think of a few ladies:
Harding
Rochette
Flatt
Butyrskaya
E. Hughes
Ando, but she has now dumped the flip

Sometimes did both jumps correctly: Slutskaya, Kwan, Ito, Kim, others?

[Jenna]

I think Korpi has correct edges on both...when she actually rotates them! Kostner, V. Helgesson, McCorkell

[smarts1]

Ah!

How many of those ladies have a true flip, though?

In terms of doing both (triple) flip and lutz jumps correctly, I can only think of a few ladies:
Harding
Rochette
Flatt
Butyrskaya
E. Hughes
Ando, but she has now dumped the flip

Sometimes did both jumps correctly: Slutskaya, Kwan, Ito, Kim, others?

Even Slutskaya, Kwan, and Ito had slight flutzes. And even from the ones you mention, some of them had to work on fixing the edge (ie Ando and Flatt).

Also adding to the list, Lu Chen and in most cases, Surya Bonaly.

[Jenna]

Ira Vannut, Mae Berenice Meite from the Euros protocols.

[Triple Butz]

Even Slutskaya, Kwan, and Ito had slight flutzes. And even from the ones you mention, some of them had to work on fixing the edge (ie Ando and Flatt).

Also adding to the list, Lu Chen and in most cases, Surya Bonaly.

Chen had a slight lip and Surya's lip was especially obvious.

My point about Kwan, Ito, Slutskaya was that they occasionally could do a real lutz, but most of the time rolled onto a flat or inside.

[WayCon]

My understanding (I forget if I read this or was told this by an Eastern bloc coach): a number of US coaches proposed to the ISU that the flip and the Lutz be considered the same jump. This was only a proposal/suggestion, not something anyone was insisting on absolutely, but such an idea blends with the "who cares what edge" argument of someone like Jenna. Leafygreens represents the opposing argument. What do we do?

[Triple Butz]

I think Korpi has correct edges on both...when she actually rotates them! Kostner, V. Helgesson, McCorkell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiCRE9JR-Lo
1:35 Looks like a slight lip to me, not a great angle though.

[leafygreens]

My understanding (I forget if I read this or was told this by an Eastern bloc coach): a number of US coaches proposed to the ISU that the flip and the Lutz be considered the same jump. This was only a proposal/suggestion, not something anyone was insisting on absolutely, but such an idea blends with the "who cares what edge" argument of someone like Jenna. Leafygreens represents the opposing argument. What do we do?

That's actually not a bad idea.

[oleada]

I think that's a TERRIBLE idea. The lutz and flip are distinct jumps. They are difficult, and those who can do both correctly should be rewarded, because it is difficult. The rulesd shouldn't bow down to the lowest common denominator and reward technique flaws.

[sfahrut]

I think that's a TERRIBLE idea. The lutz and flip are distinct jumps. They are difficult, and those who can do both correctly should be rewarded, because it is difficult. The rulesd shouldn't bow down to the lowest common denominator and reward technique flaws.

Absolutely agree!

[Jenna]

I think that's a TERRIBLE idea. The lutz and flip are distinct jumps. They are difficult, and those who can do both correctly should be rewarded, because it is difficult. The rulesd shouldn't bow down to the lowest common denominator and reward technique flaws.

yes yes yes! Change the course of skating to relieve those who are incapable of performing a jump correctly? Bad idea.

[leafygreens]

I think that's a TERRIBLE idea. The lutz and flip are distinct jumps. They are difficult, and those who can do both correctly should be rewarded, because it is difficult. The rulesd shouldn't bow down to the lowest common denominator and reward technique flaws.

I agree that they are distinct jumps, but when the ability to detect the jumps itself is flawed, then what is the point of there being a rule?

[BmcC102]

Well, I actually think that take off edges are important...I mean why should someone like Rochette and Ando who worked to fix their edges receive the same values as notorious flutzeres such as Asada and Murakami? These jumps were invented years ago, and I believe credit should be given to those who perform them correctly.

And there are plenty of skaters who can do a very good "true lutz" and always have..Kim, Kostner, Czisny, Slutskaya, Sokolova**, Lepisto, Phaneuf, Sebestyen, Tuktamysheva, Meier...all of these women and many more can perform correct lutzes.

Czisny, Sokolova, Sebestyen, & Meier are all notorious lippers, so mentioning them after emphasizing the importance of correct edges is a little silly.

Slutskaya, Kwan, Kim, Ito, Yamaguchi, Chen, Bonaly, Nagasu etc.. are debatable enough when it comes to lutz and flip that I say give them the benefit of the doubt, because if there is THIS much argument over if they do or don't, it's not really worth it, IMO.

The list of female skaters who can do real lutz and flip over the years is short... as Triple Butz has shown.

I agree with those who say that the edge for these jumps is too big a deal to fans. I do think there should be a deduction, but not so big that it keeps the best OVERALL skater from winning.