Lutz and flip edges at U.S. Nationals

[BmcC102]

I also want to add that it seems like many fans have a bias against flutzes, but think lips are okay because they make the jump "harder." If it's wrong, it's wrong... and again, I stand by the fact that it shouldn't matter THAT much, esp. in the LP, which is supposed to be a free skate.

[gkelly]

I do think there should be a deduction, but not so big that it keeps the best OVERALL skater from winning.

And I do think that has almost always been the case.


Which is fine by me. Don't ignore it, but obsess over it to the exclusion of more important qualities either.

[Jenna]

Czisny, Sokolova, Sebestyen, & Meier are all notorious lippers, so mentioning them after emphasizing the importance of correct edges is a little silly.

That's why I listed them as women with strong lutzes, not flips.

[Marco]

Don't ignore it, but obsess over it to the exclusion of more important qualities either.

YES. In 2008 Asada was landing great 'flutzes'. She would enter it with a difficult entrance and land it with a lot of flow, but would inevitably get a -2 because of the edge change. I wish the judges could have given her a 0 so that the negative aspects of the jumps could be negated by the positive aspects and that her efforts in improving the quality of the jump could be recognized.

[Triple Butz]

YES. In 2008 Asada was landing great 'flutzes'. She would enter it with a difficult entrance and land it with a lot of flow, but would inevitably get a -2 because of the edge change. I wish the judges could have given her a 0 so that the negative aspects of the jumps could be negated by the positive aspects and that her efforts in improving the quality of the jump could be recognized.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uz-AktwtDfs

I think a -1 would be more appropriate: Still get decent points, while acknowledging that it is flawed at a basic level.

I love how that (f)lutz goes SWOOOSH as she hits a really great edge on the landing and idiot Kurt says, "Not as much flow as she would've liked"

[Sasha'sSpins]

I think that's a TERRIBLE idea. The lutz and flip are distinct jumps. They are difficult, and those who can do both correctly should be rewarded, because it is difficult. The rulesd shouldn't bow down to the lowest common denominator and reward technique flaws.

ITA. This is a sport.

[BmcC102]

That's why I listed them as women with strong lutzes, not flips.

Right. It seems strange to condemn flutzers by mentioning known lippers, rather than mentioning skaters that can do real lutzes and flips like Kostner, Rochette, Butyrskaya, etc..

[Jebrista]

To add to the list of ladies who did both good lutz and flip is Tatiana Malinina from Uzbekistan

[B.Cooper]

Well, I actually think that take off edges are important...I mean why should someone like Rochette and Ando who worked to fix their edges receive the same values as notorious flutzeres such as Asada and Murakami? These jumps were invented years ago, and I believe credit should be given to those who perform them correctly.

And there are plenty of skaters who can do a very good "true lutz" and always have..Kim, Kostner, Czisny, Slutskaya, Sokolova**, Lepisto, Phaneuf, Sebestyen, Tuktamysheva, Meier...all of these women and many more can perform correct lutzes.

I have to disagree with the posters above who said something to the effect..."wake me in 20 yrs when no one cares about the edges of the jumps".

Then what is the point of having lutzes and flips. Some skaters work very hard to learn to do them properly...and it is a very few of the women (more of the men seem to be able to learn to do proper lutzes and flips)...so then it seems to go back to the idea that if you have skater that properly demonstrates all 5 triple jumps for the ladies...sal, toe, loop, flip, lutz and for the men...all six triples....sal, toe, loop, flip, lutz and axel (and including quads)...then give them a bonus if they demonstrate all of them in a FS program. JMO And, for the most part, if you have watched skating long enough, you can, in real time, see the proper edge that is used in the jump (and goodness, esp if you are a judge/tech specialist, you better see the difference) ;-)

[manleywoman]

I think it is too difficult and complex for one person in real time -- that's why there are three people on the tech panel.

I'm sure it helps to have done all those turns oneself and feel the checks in one's body. I see a rocker or a counter and I usually know immediately that it was either a rocker or a counter, but I need to stop and think about which one it was, and by the time I figure it out the skater has already executed several more steps.

Exactly. I am a skater who has passed all the MITF and through the 3rd figure test, and I can't call footwork in real time. It's so difficult. That's why I love David Kirby on SkateRadio: he can do it, and its damned impressive to hear.

[Ziggy]

I have a question. If there is a skater out there who both flutzes and lips, could they simply call the jumps differently to avoid (e) calls?

Nope. A lip is not a lutz and a flutz is not a flip.

It's not just the edge. On the lutz entry you are skating in the opposite direction to the jump rotation and on the flip entry you are skating in the same direction as the jump rotation.

I also want to add that it seems like many fans have a bias against flutzes, but think lips are okay because they make the jump "harder."

Nope. Read the above. Lipping makes the jump easier even though you're going on the outside edge because you're going on the outside edge whilst skating in the direction of the jump rotation. So it helps you to maintain balance - exactly the same as in flutzing.

You can get a sense of it when you're learning three-turns for the first time. When I did my first FO-FI ones what would happen is that I wouldn't be able to control them. I would go to deep on the inside edge.

I think that's a TERRIBLE idea. The lutz and flip are distinct jumps. They are difficult, and those who can do both correctly should be rewarded, because it is difficult. The rulesd shouldn't bow down to the lowest common denominator and reward technique flaws.

ITA. Not penalising incorrect take-off edges is extremely unfair to the skaters who are doing it properly.

Also, figure skating is an extremely complex sport. If we followed the logic of not caring about things that a casual observer doesn't notice, we'd have to do with the vast majority of proper technique altogether.

I agree that they are distinct jumps, but when the ability to detect the jumps itself is flawed, then what is the point of there being a rule?

Following this logic, you'd have to remove judging altogether. Every single judgement made in figure skating is debatable and can potentially be flawed. Such is the nature of the sport.

[vexlak]

Following this logic, you'd have to remove judging altogether. Every single judgement made in figure skating is debatable and can potentially be flawed. Such is the nature of the sport.

I fully agree with all the other statements, yet this particular one I agree even more. Not only the edges problem, the judging in general.
Lets remove the judging in its current state. We have 3 people with slow motion and sometimes all the time in the world to review something, yet many of us can see with naked eye (OK replayed on youtube sometimes) that they were wrong with their decision. And all those +/- marks all over the place. It's happening on almost every competition.
Have anyone seen the juniors at the US Nationals? I am either blind or the judging is... Do they go by ISU rules or they came up with rule set for the US nationals? What is the point of judging when its bias or political or completely out of whack. The only other cause is incompetence. But by so many people which suppose to know?
With all due respect to all good judges, it's happening everywhere and more often than not. Besides making the athletes frustrated or discouraged it makes the sport so much more interesting.

[RFOS]

Have anyone seen the juniors at the US Nationals? I am either blind or the judging is... Do they go by ISU rules or they came up with rule set for the US nationals? What is the point of judging when its bias or political or completely out of whack. The only other cause is incompetence. But by so many people which suppose to know?

Where do you see that the ISU rules haven't been followed (USFS rules are the same for Juniors and Seniors)? I presume you're talking about 2013 Nationals? What marks to you indicate that they could only have been due to bias, incompetence, or not following the rules? Of course judges aren't perfect, but I know and respect many of the judges at Nationals and they have worked hard over the course of many years to get there.

[Ziggy]

Well Nationals judging is generally +3s and 10s for everyone so I wouldn't take it seriously.

[vexlak]

Where do you see that the ISU rules haven't been followed (USFS rules are the same for Juniors and Seniors)? I presume you're talking about 2013 Nationals? What marks to you indicate that they could only have been due to bias, incompetence, or not following the rules? Of course judges aren't perfect, but I know and respect many of the judges at Nationals and they have worked hard over the course of many years to get there.

Please do not misunderstand me. I am not here to disrespect the good judges. But the some of the judging tendencies should disappear. As you can see above, Ziggy stated that the Nationals are over scored. I agree. But why? different set of rules? If I know it, Ziggy ant others know it, how fair is it for the competitors knowing that the judging sucks... Respect?
I am not going to name any skaters because it is not fair to them, however there were many mistakes. Just look at the programs and follow the score sheet.

[Iceman]

My understanding (I forget if I read this or was told this by an Eastern bloc coach): a number of US coaches proposed to the ISU that the flip and the Lutz be considered the same jump. This was only a proposal/suggestion, not something anyone was insisting on absolutely, but such an idea blends with the "who cares what edge" argument of someone like Jenna. Leafygreens represents the opposing argument. What do we do?

Let's come with a name for that jump: I'll start with Fliutz or lutfli, both not very good

[Iceman]

Some skaters never manage to get on a strong edge for either flip or lutz. This probably is reinforced by the trend to enter both of these jumps from a straight line rather than on a curve. Maybe if coaches would start teaching their skaters to enter from a curve, the problem could at least be minimized.

Skaters with excellent Lutz technique will actually deepen the outside edge as they reach back for the pick. Noticing this quality should be of help in the judging process, I would think.

[B.Cooper]

I hope it's OK if I repost this analysis from the "Genesis of bad technique" thread in the Trash Can (http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...t=77496&page=3), because the topic seems appropriate for GSD and I put a lot of work into the analysis and at least want to hear other poster's thoughts. It was said that one would have to be "choosing to ignore" the "clearly wrong" edges of Wagner and Lam's lutzes and anyone who couldn't see them in real time is "on the cuckoo bird train." I disagree, and I'm not choosing to ignore anything, but trying my best to analyze it closely and objectively. I'm open to hearing others' dissenting opinions, even if you think I'm "cuckoo." Please try to provide evidence to support your opinions (the fact that such-and-such a skater has the reputation for being a flutzer doesn't count as evidence. )

All of the videos for these screen caps were easily found on Youtube and mostly from the NBC coverage (I think Gao's SP video was from Japanese TV coverage).


EDITED the last big quoted section because I forgot to list Czisny's lutz in the "clear" category and that made it more like 50/50 as to how many were "clearly correct" in real time.

Perhaps you should submit your analysis to USFS and the ISU as a video submission, with your comments, and get them to include it in their education seminars. Or better yet, perhaps some of the webmasters and web mistresses could start a video portal for isolated elements from programs, with a written script of each individual isolated element, showing proper technique. I know that Christy Krall who does DartFish programs/seminars has a treasure trove of vids for teaching technique...but that isn't available to the consumer at large.