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  1. #541
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frau Muller View Post
    On the 'current' vs 'past eras' matter - The early allegations in the current matter point not only to Sui/Han but to the results of some past championships, most notably the wins by Zhang/Zhang at Jr Worlds in the early '00s. If the under-/over-aged skaters are stripped of their medals then, for example, Yuko Kawaguchi and her old partner (skating for Japan) would become Jr World Champs of 2001. [The irony is that the two pair teams who would now win Junior Worlds titles, as a result of the findings, are both Japanese (Kawaguchi/Markuntsev and Takahashi/Tran). Pure coincidence...instant "Pair Power" for Japan!]
    One tiny correction, only Yuko and Narumi are from Japan. Their partners (Yuko's former partner) Markuntsov and Tran are from Russia and Canada respectively. I wouldn't go so far as to say "Pair Power" for Japan since Japan seems to poo poo pairs skating. It's just a coincidence that they skated for that country either pair or both could have easily skated for Canada or Russia (which Yuko does now)

  2. #542

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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    One tiny correction, only Yuko and Narumi are from Japan. Their partners (Yuko's former partner) Markuntsov and Tran are from Russia and Canada respectively. I wouldn't go so far as to say "Pair Power" for Japan since Japan seems to poo poo pairs skating. It's just a coincidence that they skated for that country either pair or both could have easily skated for Canada or Russia (which Yuko does now)
    Both teams in question are Japanese. It was the flag of Japan that was hoisted in each case. The countries on the trophies/in the record books will be Japan.

    Had Yuko and "Russian Hunk #1" won the JrWorld title in 01, perhaps Japn would not have poo-pooed Pairs? I don't think they are now, with T/T.
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  3. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frau Muller View Post
    On the 'current' vs 'past eras' matter - The early allegations in the current matter point not only to Sui/Han but to the results of some past championships, most notably the wins by Zhang/Zhang at Jr Worlds in the early '00s. If the under-/over-aged skaters are stripped of their medals then, for example, Yuko Kawaguchi and her old partner (skating for Japan) would become Jr World Champs of 2001.
    Frau Muller, liebchen, take another look at Post #1:

    Quote Originally Posted by oleada View Post
    Dan Zhang:
    ISU Birthdate: 04.10.1985 (25)
    Listed Birthdate: 04.10.1987 (23)

    Hao Zhang:
    ISU Birthdate: 06.07.1984 (26)
    Listed Birthdate: 06.02.1982 (29)

    *snip*

    So, if these birthdates are correct:

    *snip*

    - Dan Zhang was too young to compete in the JGP and Junior Worlds in 1999/2000 and too young to compete at the Olympics, Worlds and 4CC in 2002.
    The Zhangs were age-eligible for Junior Worlds in 2001.

    Or do you have any information that you're withholding?

  4. #544
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frau Muller View Post
    Both teams in question are Japanese. It was the flag of Japan that was hoisted in each case.
    But you are making it sound like it's a whitch hunt so two teams from Japan can benfit and that is simply not true.

    And actually in the case of the Zhangs, K/M never got the change to see their flag hoisted as the champions, and even if they get the gold awarded later, they'll never get that moment back.

  5. #545

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squibble View Post
    Frau Muller, liebchen, take another look at Post #1:



    The Zhangs were age-eligible for Junior Worlds in 2001.

    Or do you have any information that you're withholding?
    Right. But early-on in this discussion, it was being speculated by others (not I) that both of the Zhangs' Jr Worlds wins might be 'illegitimate' - the 2001 one due to the female being too young and the 2003 one for the male being too old.
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  6. #546

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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    ....And actually in the case of the Zhangs, K/M never got the change to see their flag hoisted as the champions, and even if they get the gold awarded later, they'll never get that moment back.
    Flags are hoisted for silver and bronze medalists at ISU events, no?

    Stop the witch hunt, pls. I have paid work to do.
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  7. #547
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frau Muller View Post
    Both teams in question are Japanese. It was the flag of Japan that was hoisted in each case. The countries on the trophies/in the record books will be Japan.

    Had Yuko and "Russian Hunk #1" won the JrWorld title in 01, perhaps Japn would not have poo-pooed Pairs? I don't think they are now, with T/T.
    Japan does not encourage pairs. Sasha could not get citizenship from Japan just like Tran cannot.

  8. #548

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frau Muller View Post
    Flags are hoisted for silver and bronze medalists at ISU events, no?
    We'll just tell everyone that could have won gold but got silver to not be disappointed then since they got the medal ceremony. Then we'll tell the people that could have won bronze that it was only a bronze so they didn't miss much. I'm sure they'll agree.
    "Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm -- but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves." – T.S. Eliot

  9. #549

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    The ISU responded to the Associated Press today: http://www.metronews.ca/ottawa/sport...ver-medallists
    International skating officials found no discrepancies in the birthdates of three Chinese figure skaters, including 2006 Olympic pairs silver medalists Zhang Dan and Zhang Hao, after questions were raised about their eligibility.

    The birthdates listed on the Chinese Olympic Committee's website for the Zhangs and female singles skater Xu Binshu match what the International Skating Union has, spokeswoman Selina Vanier said Thursday. Skaters fill out registration forms before competing at international events, and the ISU checks that information against their passports.

    Reigning junior world champions Sui Wenjing and Han Cong and three other skaters whose eligibility was questioned were not listed on the official Chinese Olympic Committee site, Vanier said.

    "The ISU is gathering information on this matter and will not comment any further until all the details are received," Vanier said in an e-mail to The Associated Press.

  10. #550

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frau Muller View Post
    Thank you, Angelskates. This is exactly what I asked for several posts/pages above and was jeered at by most of the FSUers. The falsification of info is wrong...by ANY country. So if certain FSUers have so much time on their hands, how about doing a service to humanity and checking skaters of ALL countries who have competed in ISU championships or G-P-type events since age restrictions came about? I bet that we would find similar errors in the paperwork of skaters of other countries. Just as as similar 'age scandal' errupted over a Romanian gymnast in the Nadia Comaneci era...but when I pointed it out, some FSUers scoffed.
    Oh, get over yourself. This is not a personal campaign against you.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  11. #551

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    Zhang/Zhang cleared! Aww, sorry for Yuko...but Takahashi/Tran still have a chance of being named Jr World Champs of 2009/10, to give the title to Japan (and "Canada, sort-a").

    Thanks for the support, overedge.
    Last edited by Frau Muller; 02-17-2011 at 06:20 PM.
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  12. #552

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    Oleada & others who did data grabs -- did you grab data for all sports, or just for skating?

  13. #553

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frau Muller View Post
    Jeez, you don't have to scream (bold lettering); we hear you. I just feel sorry for talented skaters like Sui/Han who live in an authoritarian regime and most likely did not make decisions to cheat on their own...and most likely did not even know about the bloody age rules themselves. In such societies, federation officials, coaches and others usually make decisions. For poor decisions, talented individuals will probably never be given a fair shake from ISU judging panels ever again. I would not want to be the FSUer whose innocent and well-meaning analysis led to the end of promising careers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frau Muller View Post
    Perhaps the Chinese are bigger threats? Or are we "in the service of humanity and sport"? If so, let's be "in the service" and confirm the birthdates and documentation of skaters from ALL countries.
    I'm probably going to regret posting this, but....

    I'm really annoyed at the implication that I started this thread because I dislike the Chinese skaters (please, I dislike skaters from all countries ) or because I want promising careers ended or because I have issues with the political system. This is not the case AT ALL. I did not go down stealthily hunting down birthdays because I wanted to prove that they were ineligible. The link was posted in another thread, and someone saw that Sui was ineligible. Looked up a few other names, a pattern came up. Found a few other links in that same website. It wasn't a witch hunt and if it had been Canada, USA, Mexico, Outer Mongolia, I would have acted the same.

    But....China has been found to fake birthdates, repeatedly, in multiple sports. Does that make me extra suspicious, especially when the pattern shows them to become eligible with the new birthdays? Well, duh. Who wouldn't? It's not about checking the birthdays of every single skater for every country. Sports operate on the assumption of everyone being on the same playing field, so if people submit a passport, an organization will accept it as true. But when birthdays come up in an official website as being different....then yes, you investigate then. IME, this hasn't been the case for Skate Canada or JSF or USFS.

    I do feel bad for the skaters who are involved, because I doubt they have much of a voice or opportunity to stand against a system, but I feel much worse for the skaters who they beat if they were competing when they weren't eligible. They'll never get the opportunity to stand on the podium or skate their free program.

    And I'm not sure what that one gymnast back in the 80s has to do with much. It was wrong then for Romania to do it and it's wrong now. Just because she wasn't caught or because it was found out after the statute expired, does not mean it's okay for other countries to get away with cheating.

    Quote Originally Posted by barbk View Post
    Oleada & others who did data grabs -- did you grab data for all sports, or just for skating?
    Sorry, barb, the answer is no.
    Last edited by oleada; 02-17-2011 at 06:35 PM.

  14. #554

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    Oleada, there's no doubt that you did NOT set about doing this on purpose, against individual skaters. You did well-intended research. Regardless, it may result in costing Sui/Han the Jr World title. And it may not. The choo-choo has left the station and it's now in the ISU's territory.
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  15. #555

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    Well, if he's too old, then they shouldn't even be there anyway.

  16. #556
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    Quote Originally Posted by softlip View Post
    I compared the birth dates of to national team members on the respective official homepage with the birthdates on the ISU bios.
    I tried to do the same thing for Uzbekistan, but the Federation doesn't have a website.

    I did do some investigation on Anastasia Gimazetdinova, though. She was second at Uzbekistani Nationals in 1997-98, and eighth at Four Continents in 1999. I'd say she's probably over the ISU's minimum age limit for seniors by now.

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    deleted
    Last edited by johnet; 02-17-2011 at 08:28 PM. Reason: never mind... my bad

  18. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squibble View Post
    I tried to do the same thing for Uzbekistan, but the Federation doesn't have a website.

    I did do some investigation on Anastasia Gimazetdinova, though. She was second at Uzbekistani Nationals in 1997-98, and eighth at Four Continents in 1999. I'd say she's probably over the ISU's minimum age limit for seniors by now.
    Finally, the truth comes out. Gizmo is OF AGE!

    ETA: Just want to honor George Orwell with my current number of posts

  19. #559

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbk View Post
    Oleada & others who did data grabs -- did you grab data for all sports, or just for skating?
    Let's rephrase this question:

    Oleada & others, do you have unlimited time on your hands so that you were able to data grab for every sport on earth, whether or not you're interested in those sports & whether or not the other sports have age limits?

  20. #560

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    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    Let's rephrase this question:

    Oleada & others, do you have unlimited time on your hands so that you were able to data grab for every sport on earth, whether or not you're interested in those sports & whether or not the other sports have age limits?
    Ah, no... that's not why I was asking.

    If they had happened to have grab info for other sports from the Chinese websites, investigating errors in reported ages in sports where age is not likely to be a significant factor (such as marathon and 10,000 meter runners, or weight lifters) then it might be interesting to see whether Chinese athletes sent to international competitions in those sports had birth dates that matched what was provided to the international federation for that sport. If their data is similarly messed up for these other sports, then one might reasonably say that Chinese data is a GIGO problem. If there are not the kind of age discrepancies we see in skating, then it causes one to think hmmm... if it is indeed random error, why just in skating?

    I thought that Oleada and others did some fine research. I don't read Chinese, but I have been involved in both auditing and statistical analysis, and just thought that this might be another possible way to assess the issue, which I might have been able to do had the data been grabbed.

    But thanks for looking out for Oleada's interests and schedule.

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