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  1. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by nro View Post
    Ilvskating, that doesn't explain why these discrepancies are consistently in opposite directions for males versus females.
    I know. The pattern means it should not be a result of random typo errors. But it doesn't mean that there is no random error either. I'm just trying to make some sense out of the information.
    Again from all we gathered, I believe Hao Zhang's isu bio is most likely correct, that's all I'm saying.

  2. #442
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    The one I'm most interested in at this point is Wenjing Sui. I find it impossible to believe she is 15. Also, as far as I understand, it's entirely likely she is too young to compete in even junior worlds this year. If that's true and they go ahead and compete I'll be seriously pissed. Also they should be stripped of their GPF medals at the least.

    If Zhangs dates were false it was in the past and there's not a lot to be gained at this point. When they got their senior medals they were of age. I'm more interested in seeing it doesn't happen again, with Sui and Han.

  3. #443
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    Perhaps there is something to be gained for those who finished behind Z/Z at any event they were not of age at....
    I am free of all prejudices. I hate everyone equally.~W. C. Fields

  4. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by alilou View Post
    The one I'm most interested in at this point is Wenjing Sui. I find it impossible to believe she is 15. Also, as far as I understand, it's entirely likely she is too young to compete in even junior worlds this year. If that's true and they go ahead and compete I'll be seriously pissed. Also they should be stripped of their GPF medals at the least.

    If Zhangs dates were false it was in the past and there's not a lot to be gained at this point. When they got their senior medals they were of age. I'm more interested in seeing it doesn't happen again, with Sui and Han.
    I love Sui/Han. They are great in both technical and artistic aspects, but if it turns out they cheated, strip them of the medals! And I think they should be banned for the number of years they cheated, not that I know the rules, just feel that it would be fair. What I fear is that if they really didn't cheat, people would still assume that they got away with it and they will never be judged fairly.

    I think that some of the inconsistency would be a result of cheating, but there could be some that were simply errors. There is no way we can tell. So for those who did not cheat, I feel sorry for them.

    But after all, it's the fed to be blamed. They should be responsible for checking everything is correct. However, I also read that a lot of the bd alteration was individual behavour of the athletes and their parents. So no matter what, there must be somebody to blame when 9 skaters have problems with their bd. error or deliberation. They should learn their lessons and be honest and diligent.

  5. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilvskating View Post
    "Hao Zhang:
    ISU Birthdate: 06.07.1984 (26)
    Listed Birthdate: 06.02.1982 (29)"
    according to benedict_david

    when looking at this, it makes me blieve more that Hao Zhang's listed bd is an error. why on earth would he change his day of birth to July 6 from Feb. 6? July 1 is cut off date, he could simply change it to Feb.6 , 1983 to achieve the same goal for competition as July 4, 1984 would do, without bothering to remember a different month and day of birth, also one year less of "movement" of year of birth.
    He would change the month because being born July 6, 1984 allows him to skate as a junior in 2005, but being born Feb 6, 1984 does not. He would be motivated to claim to be younger than he actually is, so moving his birthdate later (after July 1) would serve his purpose.
    Born 6 July 1984 = ineligible for junior competitions as of 1 July 2006
    Born 6 Feb 1984 = ineligible as of 1 July 2005

  6. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by alilou View Post
    The one I'm most interested in at this point is Wenjing Sui. I find it impossible to believe she is 15. Also, as far as I understand, it's entirely likely she is too young to compete in even junior worlds this year. If that's true and they go ahead and compete I'll be seriously pissed. Also they should be stripped of their GPF medals at the least.

    If Zhangs dates were false it was in the past and there's not a lot to be gained at this point. When they got their senior medals they were of age. I'm more interested in seeing it doesn't happen again, with Sui and Han.
    Me, too. Y/C would've won a bronze medal this year if Sui cheated. Also, which pairs team did Sui/Han beat out to get to the GPF?

    I truly hope the ISU/IOC gets to the bottom of this and rectifies this situation. It's a travesty.

    -Bridget

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frau Muller View Post
    I would not want to be the FSUer whose innocent and well-meaning analysis led to the end of promising careers.
    I don't think anyone is suggesting that they WANT the careers of these athletes to end. I find it very upsetting that athletes may have been forced to break the rules, but at the end of the day, rules may have been broken and if they were, the appropriate action needs to occur.

    Who I actually feel the most sorry for is athletes who were of age that finished off the podium in events or didn't advance to the Grand Prix final because they lost to an age ineligible team.

    What I also know is that oleada would have performed the same course of action if these skaters had been American, Russian, or Japanese and insinuating otherwise is grossly insulting.
    Last edited by Allen; 02-16-2011 at 11:08 PM.
    Logic is in the eye of the logician --Gloria Steinem

  8. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by John 3 17 View Post
    Me, too. Y/C would've won a bronze medal this year if Sui cheated. Also, which pairs team did Sui/Han beat out to get to the GPF?

    I truly hope the ISU/IOC gets to the bottom of this and rectifies this situation. It's a travesty.

    -Bridget
    Takahashi/Tran were the first alternates. They won the Junior Grand Prix Final this season but they should already have had that title last year (and the World Junior title) because Sui was only 12 then. So maybe T/T would have chosen the senior final this year. If not, Yankowskas/Coughlin would have gotten the chance.

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    -- deleted --

  10. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by nro View Post
    Takahashi/Tran were the first alternates. They won the Junior Grand Prix Final this season but they should already have had that title last year (and the World Junior title) because Sui was only 12 then. So maybe T/T would have chosen the senior final this year. If not, Yankowskas/Coughlin would have gotten the chance.
    Thank you. This is so

    -Bridget

  11. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allen View Post
    (snip)Who I actually feel the most sorry for is athletes who were of age that finished off the podium in events or didn't advance to the Grand Prix final because the lost to an age ineligible team.

    What I also know is that oleada would have performed the same course of action if these skaters had been American, Russian, or Japanese and insinuating otherwise is grossly insulting.
    Great post!

    -Bridget

  12. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjsweene View Post
    He would change the month because being born July 6, 1984 allows him to skate as a junior in 2005, but being born Feb 6, 1984 does not. He would be motivated to claim to be younger than he actually is, so moving his birthdate later (after July 1) would serve his purpose.
    Born 6 July 1984 = ineligible for junior competitions as of 1 July 2006
    Born 6 Feb 1984 = ineligible as of 1 July 2005
    That does not make sense. Why would they still want to compete in junior in 2005 or 2006? If they were so good and the fed decided to change their age, it must be aiming at olympics, which was 2002 for their first. I don't see any benefit of changing the date and month for that. For the 2006 olympic cycle definitely they would wanted to compete at senior level, especially for the crutial 2005 season, right?

    I feel sick about myself now, it's like I have compulsive analysis/investigation syndrome, can't help

  13. #453

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frau Muller View Post
    I would not want to be the FSUer whose innocent and well-meaning analysis led to the end of promising careers.
    Frau, you have truly out-crazied yourself this time.

  14. #454

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    Benedict_David - are you investigating all of the other skating countries too? I'd be interested to see how many errors their data and media produced. I know I've seen non-Chinese ages incorrectly reported before (Cheltzie Lee's age was incorrectly reported several times prior to, and during, the Olympics, yet I don't consider ISA or Cheltzie to be cheats).
    Last edited by Angelskates; 02-16-2011 at 11:32 PM.

  15. #455
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    Angelskates, have other skating countries published conflicting data like China has?

  16. #456

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    Quote Originally Posted by nro View Post
    Angelskates, have other skating countries published conflicting data like China has?
    I don't know, that's why I ask benedict_David if he was looking into other countries as well. I know my Chinese residence permit had my birthdate incorrect twice, and it wasn't for any reason but carelessness - it also was a complete PITA to change. My first Australian passport also had a mistake that was equally annoying to change. Mistakes are made all the time. I'm just wondering if benedict_David is specifically looking for mistakes only for Chinese skaters, and if so, why? Again, I'd be interested in seeing him look into all skating countries, because I am sure he'd find errors too - and I don't think we'd have a thread such as this for them.

    I'm pretty disappointed when posters say errors such as this are "normal" for China. While they may not be uncommon, they're not "normal". China has a huge amount of forms for everything, so more opportunities for errors.

  17. #457
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelskates View Post
    I don't know, that's why I ask benedict_David if he was looking into other countries as well. I know my Chinese residence permit had my birthdate incorrect twice, and it wasn't for any reason but carelessness - it also was a complete PITA to change. My first Australian passport also had a mistake that was equally annoying to change. Mistakes are made all the time. I'm just wondering if benedict_David is specifically looking for mistakes only for Chinese skaters, and if so, why? Again, I'd be interested in seeing him look into all skating countries, because I am sure he'd find errors too - and I don't think we'd have a thread such as this for them.

    I'm pretty disappointed when posters say errors such as this are "normal" for China. While they may not be uncommon, they're not "normal". China has a huge amount of forms for everything, so more opportunities for errors.


    As had been pointed out multiple times, it's the pattern of errors that's problematic. Girls are always reported as older and men as younger. If the errors were random bureaucratic mistakes, there wouldn't be a pattern. And as has been pointed out multiple times, the original discussion arose in the who was eligible for 4CC thread. It was not a witchhunt against the Chinese. Again, these two points have been discussed several times up thread. You are more than welcome to research any skater you wish. Please let us know what you find.
    Those who never succeed themselves are always the first to tell you how.

  18. #458

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    Quote Originally Posted by rfisher View Post
    As had been pointed out multiple times, it's the pattern of errors that's problematic. Girls are always reported as older and men as younger. If the errors were random bureaucratic mistakes, there wouldn't be a pattern. And as has been pointed out multiple times, the original discussion arose in the who was eligible for 4CC thread. It was not a witchhunt against the Chinese. Again, these two points have been discussed several times up thread. You are more than welcome to research any skater you wish. Please let us know what you find.
    There doesn't need to be a reason for a pattern, a pattern can also be caused by a random coincidence.

  19. #459
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelskates View Post
    There doesn't need to be a reason for a pattern, a pattern can also be caused by a random coincidence.
    Anything is possible, but the statistical odds are against that being the case. However, why don't you do your own fact checking and present your data refuting what has been presented before.
    Those who never succeed themselves are always the first to tell you how.

  20. #460

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    Quote Originally Posted by rfisher View Post
    Anything is possible, but the statistical odds are against that being the case. However, why don't you do your own fact checking and present your data refuting what has been presented before.
    Because I can't be bothered and I don't think it would change people's opinions. If I thought it would make a difference, I would, but I think it's clear, people will believe what's published on the internet over anything else in this case. What evidence would satisfy you (collective you)?

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