Age Discrepancies for Chinese Skaters

[rfisher]

Just to reply to those who've questioned if there is some biological way to determine exact age, the answer is no. You can only get a relative age by looking at bones or teeth. Relative being withing 4-5 years on young adults. It would require x-rays of joints which I doubt anybody would do and then it's you only get bone age which can vary from chronological age for a number of reasons. DNA or blood will not indicate age.

[let`s talk]

I can't believe that so many people are happy at the prospect of medals being taken away from past winners. How sweet.

Don't you care to consider the feelings of those skaters (and federations) who followed the rules?

[Ozzisk8tr]

If nothing happens to punish the Chinese federation, I wonder if the judges marks will at upcoming competitions. I feel this thing will not blow over lightly. I do feel very sorry for the skaters however.

[hanca]

If nothing happens to punish the Chinese federation, I wonder if the judges marks will at upcoming competitions. I feel this thing will not blow over lightly. I do feel very sorry for the skaters however.

Unfortunately, I feel exactly opposite. They will get away with it, although it is so unfair to those who do follow the rules.

[bsfan]

Another piece of news found, which (seems to) say that Dan Zhang was 10 years old in 1998.(correct me if Im wrong)
http://translate.google.com/translat...0%2F000861.htm

Quote:
In 1998, 10-year-old Yao Bin Zhang Dan was the case, to Beijing. Participate in national team training, she became the youngest national team player. 

Does this indicate that Yao Bin is AT LEAST among those which change the age?

In general, Chinese men have smaller build compared to western competitors. But Chinese women don't have such a big difference. This is the only thing that make me respect Shen/Zhao. They have great elements with not that big of size difference. And Pan/Tong (she is so thin). Maybe those people figured out they should find an easier way to overcome this problem.

[julieann]

I can't believe that so many people are happy at the prospect of medals being taken away from past winners. How sweet.

I can't believe some are upset at the prospect of the medals finally going to the ones who actually earned it without cheating!

[FigureSpins]

In general, Chinese men have smaller build compared to western competitors. But Chinese women don't have such a big difference. This is the only thing that make me respect Shen/Zhao. They have great elements with not that big of size difference. And Pan/Tong (she is so thin). Maybe those people figured out they should find an easier way to overcome this problem.

Easier doesn't make it right. If their genetics make them smaller, I don't think that justifies cheating. There are still tall boys/men and petite girls/women in China, even by western standards. They would have to manage the pairings, as the USSR did for years, but lying about athletes ages just to win a competition is wrong. Period.

[Seregil]

If nothing happens to punish the Chinese federation, I wonder if the judges marks will at upcoming competitions. I feel this thing will not blow over lightly. I do feel very sorry for the skaters however.

That hasn't been the case in gymnastics, so I doubt it will be in skating.

[nlyoung]

At the very least, I hope this forces them to declare ages earlier so that there is a record, i.e. long before skaters hit the international scene. This will make it far more difficult to cheat!

[93ning]

i dont know very clearly about zhangdan

but i just can tell u zhanghao and Hancong' age is right

im sorry i cant tell u the reason
but i can sure HANcong is 18 in 2010
and he studying in school ,every years school name list can tell u.

i dont know yu/jin very clearly too
just look.....
she looks too old if she really is a 13/12years old

[Frau Muller]

I can't believe some are upset at the prospect of the medals finally going to the ones who actually earned it without cheating!

Jeez, you don't have to scream (bold lettering); we hear you. I just feel sorry for talented skaters like Sui/Han who live in an authoritarian regime and most likely did not make decisions to cheat on their own...and most likely did not even know about the bloody age rules themselves. In such societies, federation officials, coaches and others usually make decisions. For poor decisions, talented individuals will probably never be given a fair shake from ISU judging panels ever again. I would not want to be the FSUer whose innocent and well-meaning analysis led to the end of promising careers.

[bsfan]

i dont know very clearly about zhangdan

but i just can tell u zhanghao and Hancong' age is right

im sorry i cant tell u the reason
but i can sure HANcong is 18 in 2010
and he studying in school ,every years school name list can tell u.

i dont know yu/jin very clearly too
just look.....
she looks too old if she really is a 13/12years old

Then why the data from official site are different? Some Chinese media seem to indicate that the American media raised the issue. Wasn't it caused by data mis-match btw Chinese official site and ISU?

[93ning]

Then why the data from official site are different? Some Chinese media seem to indicate that the American media raised the issue. Wasn't it caused by data mis-match btw Chinese official site and ISU?

im not work in the office ,so i dont know
i just said whose age that i know and i can sure.

Han cong and Zhanghao

[brina]

Jeez, you don't have to scream (bold lettering); we hear you. I just feel sorry for talented skaters like Sui/Han who live in an authoritarian regime and most likely did not make decisions to cheat on their own...and most likely did not even know about the bloody age rules themselves. In such societies, federation officials, coaches and others usually make decisions. For poor decisions, talented individuals will probably never be given a fair shake from ISU judging panels ever again. I would not want to be the FSUer whose innocent and well-meaning analysis led to the end of promising careers.

I think it's silly that you're arguing for the Chinese skaters for the sake of fairness. Sure, it isn't fair for them if it wasn't their decision, but it is much more unfair for everyone if they are not competing by the rules. Whether or not a poster on this board is involved in the process of uncovering any untruths (which I doubt will actually lead to anything for the reasons mentioned before), it is ultimately more fair for everyone involved in the sport if the rules are followed consistently.

EDIT: I would also like to add that while I think punishment should take place if the rules are not being followed, I hope judging panels don't let their opinions of this alter their judging. That is the last thing that would make the sport look objective.

[barbk]

For poor decisions, talented individuals will probably never be given a fair shake from ISU judging panels ever again. I would not want to be the FSUer whose innocent and well-meaning analysis led to the end of promising careers.

Do you feel equally bad for the folks who work in the drug labs that found drug residues in many cycling and track & field athletes -- some of whom were forced then to give back Olympic, World, and Tour de France medals?

There is every appearance that birth dates have been fudged for a number of Chinese skaters -- notice that the girls are all entered as older, while the boys are entered as younger.

I do not see this as any different from an athlete taking performance enhancing drugs with the concurrence and support of their federation or coaches. (And different than the German girls who were fed "vitamins".) If they won medals under false pretenses, there should be punishment including withdrawal of medals and withdrawal of entries falsely earned, and if the evidence indicates systematic problems, then the Chinese program should get the death penalty for at least a year, just like N. Korea got in gymnastics.

[midori]

bsfan, the spreadsheet was huge. It is natural to have many errors. You know when federations, any skating federations in the world, publish big documents they usually contain some errors.

I am not talking about if there were cheats or not. I am saying that the data highly likely has some honest errors, with or without cheated ones.

ETA: 93ning, thank you for your post about Han cong and Zhang Hao!

[benedict_david]

bsfan, the spreadsheet was huge. It is natural to have many errors. You know when federations, any skating federations in the world, publish big documents they usually contain some errors.

I am not talking about if there were cheats or not. I am saying that the data highly likely has some honest errors, with or without cheated ones.

Then in those errors, girls happen to have earlier birthdays and guys happen to have later birthdays. And we have found other resources which HAPPEN to agree with those errors (multiple documents, news). What a COINCEDENCE!

[julieann]

Jeez, you don't have to scream (bold lettering); we hear you. I just feel sorry for talented skaters like Sui/Han who live in an authoritarian regime and most likely did not make decisions to cheat on their own...and most likely did not even know about the bloody age rules themselves. In such societies, federation officials, coaches and others usually make decisions. For poor decisions, talented individuals will probably never be given a fair shake from ISU judging panels ever again. I would not want to be the FSUer whose innocent and well-meaning analysis led to the end of promising careers.

Bold isn't screaming, caps is; bold is being emphatic.

You can let "innocent" skaters off the hook all you want, maybe at eight years old but at 13 and 15? No way. When they stare up at that flag on the top of that podium knowing that they are there because they didn't tell the truth is WRONG (now I'm screaming), my coach made me do it, my mom, my fed... they shouldn't be a bit surprised someone got suspicious and shouldn't be surprised if they are stripped of their medals and records and live with that shame for the rest of their career. They have what is coming if they are guilty.

I feel most sorry for the skaters who got that precious moment of getting that medal stolen by a cheater. Finally getting it 10 years later or whatever is not the same thing.

[taf2002]

[QUOTE=Frau Muller;3076342]Jeez, you don't have to scream (bold lettering); we hear you. I just feel sorry for talented skaters like Sui/Han who live in an authoritarian regime and most likely did not make decisions to cheat on their own...and most likely did not even know about the bloody age rules themselves. In such societies, federation officials, coaches and others usually make decisions. For poor decisions, talented individuals will probably never be given a fair shake from ISU judging panels ever again. I would not want to be the FSUer whose innocent and well-meaning analysis led to the end of promising careers.[/QUOTE]

Are you seriously calling out the FSUer who helped uncover cheating? Really?

I agree Sui/Han are talented, but so are those who played by the rules & got cheated out of a medal or out of standings. And if Sui is underage, that could have something to do with how high & how far Han is able to throw her.

If any federation wants to pair up a man who is too old for juniors with a female too young for seniors they should have to wait to compete internationally until the female is 15. Otherwise it's not a level playing field. I hope this skandal busts things wide open, and if some talented Chinese get robbed of a promising career, I feel bad for those individuals, but that is exactly what cheating does to the rest of the field.

[midori]

Then in those errors, girls happen to have earlier birthdays and guys happen to have later birthdays. And we have found other resources which HAPPEN to agree with those errors (multiple documents, news). What a COINCEDENCE!

I wish you read the latter half of my post.

Also I did not know you have found any other resources of multiple documents and news about Cong Han's age.