Age Discrepancies for Chinese Skaters

[Jenna]

Oleada, you're officially famous.

[Sasha'sSpins]

Whining from a bunch of typical white racist losers.

Are you for real?

Btw-I'm not 'white'. And I certainly don't consider myself to be a racist when it comes to people who cheat. Notice I said 'people'. I don't need to pull the race card-a cheat is a cheat, and a liar is a liar no matter what race or ethnic group they come from.

And how do you know that everyone posting in this thread is white?

I was about post this but you beat me to it.

[oleada]

Oleada, you're officially famous.

Anyway, I don't want this to get lost in the shuffle. It was posted originally by poster benedict_david (thanks!) who noticed a discrepancy with Han Yan's birthday.

Han Yan
ISU birthdate: 06.03.1996
Listed birthdate: 06.03.1994

It is from the 2007/10/29 document.

[Frau Muller]

"White racist losers'? Uh...if you see my analysis of who'd benefit most if Sui/Han and others are stripped of their ISU medals, you'd see Japan at the top of the list. In the case of Zhang/Zhang at the jr level, other Chinese would move up. Nothing racist about it.

[peibeck]

Good job by all posters responsible for bringing this important issue to the forefront. Of course it's not like skating needs another scandal....

Now it will be interesting to see if other news agencies around the world pick up on the AP story. Also I thought it interesting that the ISU already was aware of the "discrepancies." Obviously they are reading FSU as well.

[newbatgirl]

Nancy Armour does a lot of articles about skating, so I would not be surprised if she was a member here.

She is and she has linked to this forum before as has Hersh. They both have stated that it would be foolish to not visit this site often for up to date info on the sport. Phil Hersh is not my favorite journalist in the world but I appreciate him giving credit where it was due.

[leafygreens]

I was under the impression (and I'm nor sure where I saw the speculation) that the stripping of the 2000 medals was a concession from the IOC where they wouldn't do anything about 2008 because it would humiliate the host nation.

That doesn't make sense. Who cares if they are humiliated, if they broke the rules?

[HisWeirness]

Ms. Kexin Zhang -

Was 3rd at Jr G-P of Japan. Angela Wang of the USA, who came in 4th, would move up to a bronze medal

Ms. Li Zijun -

Was 3rd at Jr G-P Finals - Risa Shoji of Japan would move up to the bronze medal.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the birthdates of Kexin Zhang and Zijun Li have been consistent in both the Chinese sports and ISU records. Therefore, they are not suspect under the age discrepancies issue and discussion of having their results taken away does not make sense.

Kexin Zhang was originally entered for Four Continents, but pinky166 correctly identified on Feb 5 that Kexin is too young (not 15 (only 14) by July 1, 2010) to participate in Senior ISU Championships. Kexin Zhang is no longer entered for Four Continents 2011.

The identification of this error led haribobo and others to wonder about the ages of Chinese ladies skaters in the 4CCs forum in Kiss and Cry. sammyf linked to the Chinese Sports listing of skater ages and RFOS found that Sui's birthdate was different and the rest is history.

Bingwa Geng and Binshu Xu do have age discrepancy issues as pointed out previously in this thread.

[alilou]

pinky166, sammyf, RFOS and oleada

Never for one second did I believe Wenjing Sui was 15 - glad the truth has emerged, and hope something is actually done about it.

[portia]

My quick take on this: Asian girls/ women can look deceptively young physically for their actual age，so　it’s　unfair　to　automatically　assume　all　Ｃhi nese　female　athletes　to　be　underage. ＯＴＯＨ，Chinese sporting feds have track record of fudging certain athlete‘s　ages，let‘s　face　it，Ｃhinese　bureaucracy　i sn’t　known　for　being　stellarly　ethical。Ｔhese　two　f acts　don‘t　have　to　be　mutually　exclusive　of　each　o ther i.e. they can both be true.　Ｔhere　exists　a　middle　ground　of　assessing suspicions without all-encompassing assumptions that delve into ethnic or racial traits. Ｔhis　is　where　things　can　be　interpreted　as　being　r acially　insensitive。。。。Ｉget　uncomfortable　reading　 certain　speculations　about　Ａsian　physical　traits　a nd　such，andＩ’m　only　partially　Ａsian。　I guess　whatＩdon’t　want　to　happen　is　for　future　skat ers　to　be　presumed　"guilty"　before　evidence　or　pro of。　Ｗe　can　be　fair　and　judicious　in　our　discussion s，that　goes　for　both　sides。

[attyfan]

Kudos to the named FSU'ers for their work ... and glad that Hersh (and others) are giving you the credit that you deserve!

[barbk]

Portia -- I don't disagree with your premise, but I haven't heard anyone suggest that all Chinese skaters are underage. (In fact, in at least one of the cases mentioned, the issue is the guy being too old.)

Seeing her in person, Sui looks like a middle schooler, not a fifteen-year-old, and I say that with years of working in a middle school that has a high ethnic Chinese enrollment. She may be 15 (with the joint wear of a 40 year old from those throw quad attempts, shudder) but I would not be surprised to find that she is younger.

I don't know what is going to be available in the way of "evidence or proof" given that these situations have apparently happened before with the concurrence (and probably active support) of the Chinese government -- but if someone previously convicted of fraud is accused of engaging in new fraud via evidence like this, are you surprised?

[IceAlisa]

I heard this on the radio today and knew where to go for details.

Kudos to the OP and others who found this info!

[portia]

Portia -- I don't disagree with your premise, but I haven't heard anyone suggest that all Chinese skaters are underage. (In fact, in at least one of the cases mentioned, the issue is the guy being too old.)

Seeing her in person, Sui looks like a middle schooler, not a fifteen-year-old, and I say that with years of working in a middle school that has a high ethnic Chinese enrollment. She may be 15 (with the joint wear of a 40 year old from those throw quad attempts, shudder) but I would not be surprised to find that she is younger.

I don't know what is going to be available in the way of "evidence or proof" given that these situations have apparently happened before with the concurrence (and probably active support) of the Chinese government -- but if someone previously convicted of fraud is accused of engaging in new fraud via evidence like this, are you surprised?

Ｔhat‘s　what　is　so　hard　in　these　cases　now，because　 we only suspect girls who look "young“ via Western standards. Why not just presume ALL Chinese women athletes to　be　underage　then?　Ｉt’s　such　a　tough　call　and　an yone　who　claims　there　is　a　ＣＯＭＰＬＥＴＥＬＹ　fair　way　of　 assessing　and　correcting　these　cases　are　either　si mplistic　in　thinking　or　dead　wrong。　Ｗe　can　only　ＴＲ Ｙ　to　be　as　fair　and　sensitive　as　possible。　Ｅither　 way　Ｃhinese　athletes　are　going　to　suffer　being　cas t　in　suspicions，　justly　or　not。Ｉ‘m　not　opposed　to　 a　stiff　penalty　on　Ｃhinese　fed　or　even　athletes　th emselves。　　Ａ　message　needs　to　be　sent　to　not　just　 Ｃhinese　sporting　authorities　but　also　the　governme nt　in general, that their prevailing attitude of doing all that's necessary to get ahead at the　expense　of　ethics，is　one　that’s　shaming　the　wh ole　country　and　its　people　on　a　worldwide　stage 。

[jlai]

article in Chinese: http://www.bbc.co.uk/zhongwen/trad/c...ters_age.shtml

and this: http://soundofhope.org/programs/162/181415-1.asp

[Sasha'sSpins]

Probably. But sooner or later, someone is going to slip enough that the governing bodies will have no choice but to sanction/strip people of medals. Either way, the Chinese either have to start playing by the rules, or get smarter about cheating.

What ticks me off about this, apart from the cheating is that such athletes get to experience the joy of standing on a podium, hearing their country's anthem, etc. but if they are stripped of their medals many years later-the next athlete down just gets the medal and maybe a token ceremony of some kind like the 2000 U.S. Olympic Women's Gymnastics Team. It looked lovely, but I'm sure it would not have the same feel as standing on the Olympic podium in their glory days.

True... However, the 2000 gymnastics team was found out because one of their gymnasts posted her age on a blog. There's no way this many athletes can keep quiet for their entire lives. I do always laugh whenever the federations say "they had valid passports." Well WHO makes the passports?

I believe that the 2008 Chinese gymnasts will eventually be stripped of their medals as well. It may take 10 years like with Sydney, but it will happen.

IF they did in fact cheat-and I think it likely they did-I hope so too.

[Sasha'sSpins]

Oleada, you're officially famous.

Anyway, I don't want this to get lost in the shuffle. It was posted originally by poster benedict_david (thanks!) who noticed a discrepancy with Han Yan's birthday.



It is from the 2007/10/29 document.

Don't forget us little people! And be sure to get a good agent!

Well done oleada and of course the other posters like benedict_david who as you say noticed the discrepancies!

Good job by all posters responsible for bringing this important issue to the forefront. Of course it's not like skating needs another scandal....

Now it will be interesting to see if other news agencies around the world pick up on the AP story. Also I thought it interesting that the ISU already was aware of the "discrepancies." Obviously they are reading FSU as well.

Ot and I hate to say this-but maybe such a developing scandal would bring enough interest to 4CC's that they might consider expanding coverage. Maybe.

[RD]

Many of the gymnasts on that 2008 Chinese team did NOT look 16. I know some tend to look younger by default, but still- it was looked into, then quickly swept under the rug. As some posters mentioned, I hope they do get busted, even if it's years after the fact.

Kudos to the people who dug up this info- it looks as if the report originated from evidence in this thread- and I hope it brings more scrutiny to the Chinese sports feds. They've done it before, and they'll do it again if there aren't serious consequences. If there is proof beyond a doubt that those athletes competed underage (or over-age), I think the ISU needs to come down hard...impose a ban on participation in any events, take away events from them...and if the ban includes an Olympic Games, all the better. Also strip athletes of any medals they may have won while ineligible. Send the message to everyone, to the world that cheating is NOT ok and will NOT be tolerated under any circumstances. Not fair to other nations to have to deal with this.

[BigB08822]

I think the bottom line is that results must be stripped. If you don't strip medals and titles then there is no point. Federations will continue to cheat because the results may very well be worth the risk since they will stand.

Of course, this is all dependent on guilt. I have no idea if they are but where there is smoke there is fire and China is one giant smoke stack lately.

[dundas]

Based on Oleada's long history of anti-Chinese-skaters ranting on a variety boards, it's no surprise she's such a sensation on this board.

Typical 'liberal' whitey woman.