It also should be noted that Lisa Ervin was one of 3 people on the technical panel.
Hm? That can't be true. In the segment NBC aired, the caller did request review for the entry edge of Sasha's lutz.
Originally Posted by acraven
I agree Sylvia, that Ervin was only one of three tech. panel members. Doesn't seem like anyone stepped up to the plate.
Yes, they can review take-off edges, but the video is played back at normal speed, not in slow motion.
Originally Posted by Jenna
Apparently I'm "blind" too, because even on the slow motion of Ashley's lutz at around 4:26 in this video it looks to me like her left toe has already picked in and her right foot is tilted to a slight outside edge, perhaps a flat at worst (although her body is definitely leaning to the inside). It's hard to tell with absolute certainty, but I hardly think there was an "obvious" change of edge visible in real time that you'd have to be blind not to see.
However, I also looked very closely at her jumps in one of her GP events and it looked the same to me there, and the tech panel DID call an edge change. So it seems very debatable to me.
Figures used to be divided into classes based on presumed difficulty. At one time the skater's score was then multiplied by the difficulty factor which is how skaters could build up insurmountable leads.
Originally Posted by olympic
In roller skating (which still has figures as an event on its own) the figure is also divided into sections of greater or lesser importance. Turns, changes of edge and feet are the most important in that order IIRC. So a mistake made by a botched turn will hurt a skater than straying from the pattern halfway between the strike and the turn.
One thing that would have been nice with CoP is that it would have to make clear which is more important clean turns, tracings close together, overall size and shape etc. Back in the figures era one problem facing skaters was they had no real way of knowing how judges would prioritize the different elements (and different judges were clearly looking at different things).
What does this mean?
Originally Posted by Allen
^ She makes very strange calls at Nationals. For example, in 2008, Ervin was the technical specialist. Wagner received no edge calls, while Mirai's lutz in the FS was called for an edge violation, and her triple-triple was downgraded although it looked around a quarter turn. In addition to that Caroline used to received edge violations for her flips on 2009. In 2010, in the short program, both Sasha and Mirai didn't even receive an attention mark for their lutzes.
It means that if you look REALLY closely, you might see her on this train. And apparently me as well.
Originally Posted by leafygreens
No, she wasn't. Nor was she in 2010.
Originally Posted by smarts1
2008 U.S. Nationals Championship Ladies technical panel consisted of:
Technical Controller Charles Cyr; Technical Specialist Terry Kubicka; Assistant Technical Specialist Libby Scanlan.
Technical Controller Gale Tanger; Technical Specialist Lisa Ervin-Baudo; Assistant Technical Specialist Denise Williamson.
Technical Controller Wendy Enzmann; Technical Specialist Lisa-Marie Allen; Assistant Technical Specialist Troy Goldstein.
Technical Controller Doug Williams; Technical Specialist Lisa Ervin-Baudo; Assistant Technical Specialist Justin Dillon.
Last edited by Sylvia; 02-09-2011 at 07:52 PM.
While I strongly disagreed with the tech panel's calls of Meissner and Flatt's triple-triples in 2007 (she was a member of that panel-- screen caps were provided at the time and I think there are some videos on Youtube also), listing examples of calls by skater's name without providing video or screen cap evidence of those particular jumps seems to just be inviting posters to judge her calls as wrong based on the reputation of the skater(s). I felt almost positive that Mirai did NOT flutz at Nationals, and thought she did lip slightly (which is what the tech panel called). I can try to get screen caps later. Wagner's lutz from this Nationals (at least in the SP, I couldn't find as clear of a view in the FS) also looks very debatable to me based on the screen cap I provided. Flatt used to (at least sometimes) flutz, but for the past season or two I haven't seen her do it, and I don't think she's gotten any edge calls on it either (correct me if I'm wrong). There have been times where it looked like she lipped to me, however, and I think that may have been called at least once or twice?
Originally Posted by smarts1
I'll try to look at some of those jumps later.
^ Mirai received an attention call pretty much at all the comepetitions she went to the whole season on her lutz in the SP in 2009-2010. Same for Wagner.
So what? You're exactly proving my point about judging based on reputation. Even if those calls were correct that doesn't mean they necessarily deserved similar calls at Nationals. An edge change can come down to a differnce of fraction of a second in timing, and could vary from competition to competition. I'm not an accomplished skater and don't practice these jumps hundreds of times a week, so my (single) lutzes are probably more variable than most elite skaters', but I definitely flutz sometimes and not others.
Originally Posted by smarts1
Aside from just random variation, a skater could work on their technique so they either don't change edge at all (except perhaps in rare cases where something totally goes wrong with the timing, the same way skaters who certainly aren't "chronic" underrotators can underrotate jumps sometimes) or do so much less frequently (for example, Rachael with her lutzes and Joannie in the past, and Mirai might be another example).
What do you think of the Wagner screen cap I posted? While it is really obvious that most of her body is leaning to the inside, so the technique might not be the best, the edge doesn't LOOK to me to be an inside. And that's taking a screen cap from a slow-mo video, not watching in real time. Maybe the people who thought they saw an "obvious" edge change in real time were looking at the direction her upper body was leaning? If you can produce a screen cap that shows her blade on a clear inside edge, then I'll gladly take a look and be open to changing my mind. I'm just trying to be objective and NOT judge based on reputation.
It seems like on the boards certain things become accepted by many as unchangeable facts ("Sasha/Mirai/Ashley is a flutzer," "so-and-so is an underrotator") and sometimes it's so frustrating when posters just repeat these sayings as facts and automatically declare anyone who says anything contradictory (or doesn't give these skaters with a certain reputation for getting edge calls an edge call) MUST be wrong.
Last edited by RFOS; 02-09-2011 at 09:35 PM.
- Rep Power
OK, I changed my mind about Mirai's 3flips at this year's Nationals (just looked at both in slow-mo). It does look like she went ever-so-slightly back onto the inside edge before the takeoff. And I think she did the same on her lutzes. Both had a general outside edge curvature on the entry and therefore looked like outside edge takeoffs to me in real time, and since that's what the tech panel is going by, I can definitely see why they made the calls they did.
Rachael's lutz is really off of a pronounced outside edge here, and her flip looks just fine too:
Because I just can't let go once I've gotten started on something, and love overanalyzing things
Each image includes screen caps, my best analysis, and what I would call for edge violations/warnings in real time and based on the screen caps/slow mo. All videos are from 2011 U.S. Nationals except for Cohen's from 2010.
1. Wagner SP lutz: http://i52.tinypic.com/2w3aqnd.png
Real-time conclusion: "!" if it exists, no edge call if it doesn't (unclear edge)
Slow-mo/screen cap conclusion: edge appears correct, no edge call
2. Wagner FS lutz: http://i56.tinypic.com/kcdzix.png
Real-time conclusion: "!" if it existed, no "e" if it doesn't (unclear edge)
Slow-mo/screen cap conclusion: "!" if it exists, no edge call if it doesn't (Giving benefit of the doubt based on poor quality screen caps. Appears as though she may have changed edge but not confident)
3. Nagasu SP lutz: http://i54.tinypic.com/280inmd.png
Real-tme conclusion: no edge call, looked OK in real time due to overall outside entry curve
Slow-mo/screen cap conclusion: "!" if it exists (unclear edge), no edge call if it doesn't
4. Nagasu SP flip: http://i53.tinypic.com/fapvg1.png
Real-time conclusion: appeared to be a possible slight outside edge in real time due to overall outside entry curve, would give "!" if it existed, otherwise no edge call (giving the benefit of the doubt)
Slow-mo/screen cap conclusion: Still pretty unclear, possible "!" if it existed, otherwise no edge call.
5. Nagasu FS lutz: http://i51.tinypic.com/w9uv84.png
Conclusion: Unclear edge both in real time and slow-mo/screen caps. "!" if it exists, otherwise no edge call
6. Nagasu FS flip: http://i55.tinypic.com/fdykiw.png
Conclusion: Looks OK, no "e" or "!"
7. Lam SP lutz: http://i54.tinypic.com/2n8czs3.png
Conclusion: Unclear edge in real time. "!" if it exists, otherwise no edge call to give benefit of the doubt. Slow-mo appears to show a slight inside edge at takeoff. Would still only give "!" if it existed because it was short and slight. Possibly an "e" if there is no "!" available and screen caps were allowed.
8. Czisny SP lutz and flip: http://i55.tinypic.com/1j6lfm.png
Conclusion: Strong outside edge on lutz, slight outside edge on flip (looked pretty clear in real time as well as slow-mo/screen caps, would give an "e").
9. Flatt SP lutz and flip: http://i54.tinypic.com/2d1s07c.png
Conclusion: Both jumps correct
10. Zawadzki SP lutz and Gao SP flip and lutz: http://i52.tinypic.com/66x24j.png
Conclusion: Zawadzki lutz and Gao flip are correct. Gao lutz looked unclear in real time. Overall entry curve is outside, appears as though it may switch at the very last second but not confident enough to say for sure in real time. "!" if it exists based on real-time. Screen caps show more clearly that the edge did indeed change at the last minute and would give an "e" based on that.
11. Cohen SP lutz (2010): http://i55.tinypic.com/2vazdbn.png
Conclusion: Clear edge change visible in real time and in screen caps from the angle in this video. I wonder if the tech panel had access to video from this angle, because the angle shown in the segment on TV where they gave the tech panel comments was not as good. I would hope they'd have multiple angles.
Based on this year's rules ("e" only, no "!") and real-time (which the tech panel was using), the only "e"s I would give were Czisny's flip and Cohen's lutz. Therefore, the only call I "disagreed" with based on the same limitations the tech panel has is Cohen's lutz (which could be due to the different viewing angle), and Mirai's flips based on the most recent viewing (however, my very first impression watching them in real time was that the edge was incorrect, and I felt pretty confident on the one in the SP, so I can see why the tech panel called it. I was less clear on the one in the FS the first time in real time and would have given her the benefit of the doubt there. Oh, and Ashley's 3Lutz in the FS got an "e" also. I suspect that would've been more clear with a better video. The one I watched switched camera angles a split second before she jumped and had no slow mo.
Overall, I don't think the tech panel was on the "cuckoo train."
Last edited by RFOS; 02-10-2011 at 08:03 AM.
I thought this year's rules were that the panel is supposed to give "e" for an unclear edge as well as a clearly wrong one, and then it's up to the judges to reduce the GOE or not
Originally Posted by RFOS
A couple more:
Zawadzki FS flip, Lam FS lutz, Siraj SP lutz and flip: http://i52.tinypic.com/14wvadw.png
Conclusions: "e" for Agnes' flip in real time and on screen cap (not called by tech panel), "!" for Lam's lutz and Siraj's flip if available, otherwise no edge call in real time. No edge call for Lam if "!" is not an option (edge just wasn't clear), would give "e" to Siraj if there was no "!" and screen caps could be used because it does look pretty clear to me there, but not clear enough in real time for me to give an "e."
Gao FS lutz, Czisny FS flip: http://i54.tinypic.com/nl9cns.png
Conclusions: "!" for Gao's lutz in real time if available, otherwise no edge call (to give benefit of doubt, again it just wasn't obvious to me in real time). Does appear to switch to a very slight inside in screen cap. "e" for Czisny's flip in real time and screen cap (not called by tech panel)
Last edited by RFOS; 02-10-2011 at 01:44 PM.
Page 14 of the tech panel handbook says "Not taking off of a clean correct edge" as being the criterion for an "e." So it looks like one would have to be at least pretty sure the edge was incorrect before an "e" was called (especially since it also says below that "The technical panel will use the sign 'e' for a wrong take-off edge" and "judges will decide the severity of the error (major or minor error)," which implies that there IS an error. However, the burden of proof might be slightly lower than giving an "e" last year since there's no less severe option. "!" last year was defined in various places either as a short change of edge prior to takeoff or an "unclear edge at takeoff" so one would not have to be as sure that there was an error to give it, but a suspicion would seem to be enough.
Originally Posted by gkelly
I guess an flat takeoff edge could be considered not a "clean" correct edge, and the judges do have a reduction for "unclear takeoff edge" so based on that some others that I didn't call could be called (any one that didn't CLEARLY appear to be on the correct edge in real time). Only a few of the skaters above had really pronounced, obviously correct takeoff edges in real time (Zawadzki, Flatt, and Siraj's lutzes and probably only Gao and Flatt's flips of the ones I looked at, but I didn't look at Lam's or Wagner's flips [yet ]). Calling almost every jump as an "e" when many were very unclear and possibly would look obviously correct on closer analysis would really water down the significance of an "e."
Mirai's FS flip is one that looked unclear and possibly even outside to me in real time, but correct on the screen cap. The pronounced outside edge curvature going in is bothersome however. Zhang used to often do this and her flips often looked to be off on an outside edge to me in real time in the past, and I recall understanding and agreeing with her "!" calls on her flips that other posters were making fun of. Don't have time to look at her jumps right now. Rachael also used to (often) do the same thing with a very distorted entry curve on her flip (I definitely recall seeing it and taking note at Skate America 2009 when I was there live) but seems to have corrected it in her SP. She's the ONLY one who had no flat-looking or obviously distorted entry curvature or suspected edge changes in either real-time or slow-mo/screen caps. Just one of many things she's improved greatly and people don't give her enough credit for). I usually noticed the same distortion of the entry curve on her flip with Sasha as well. I'll try to look at Zhang's jumps and Cohen's flip later.
Last edited by RFOS; 02-10-2011 at 02:18 PM.
I started a new topic in GSD on my analysis of lutz and flip edges from Nationals:
I'm pretty sure all of these skaters have pretty strong muscle memory, so I'm going to be certain that if they flutz, they're going to flutz the same amount all the time. And also it's true. Flutzers are always flutzers unless they decide to fix the edge. On another point, I don't think anyone would ever argue that Sasha didn't have an "e" worthy lutz.
Originally Posted by RFOS
Also, I'm not going to argue about Wagner's lutz this season. She has clearly worked hard to make the edge a more clearer outside edge than it has before, but it is definitely a questionable edge.
Last edited by smarts1; 02-10-2011 at 09:52 PM.