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  1. #21
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    Desire for fast results and not looking long term.

  2. #22
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    This is an interesting topic. Will the sequel be "Exodus of bad technique"?

  3. #23
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    This is a big problem in Poland, and I would assume everywhere else too.

    Parents throwing a strop when their child doesn't do very well at competitions.

    But at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter where you placed at pre-Novice levels.

    2axel is where a completely different ball-game starts and all those pre-Novice champions taught badly suddenly start dropping out.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Autumn_girl View Post
    Sometimes coaches (or skaters, or skater's parents) want to have good results as soon as possible. But learning how to jump correctly and improving skating skills always take time. Coaches like Mishin whose students have solid technique would never let the kid to do triples when they are not sure he/she will do it correctly. Other coaches only care if the kid is able to land the triple and win the competition now. That's it
    ITA. I think desires to get media attention also plays a roll.
    A 13 year old prodigy who can perform easily triple triples and tirple axels would get media hype, followed by reputation among judges and sponsorship opportunities, regardless of quality of such jumps.

    With reputation and sponsorship, the skater would receive high component marks by mearly frailing on ice and pretending to be perky. Even if the skater bombs at Nationals, there will be people screaming that she is the best medal prospect our contry has and hence should be sent to international competitions.
    Last edited by RumbleFish; 02-08-2011 at 07:42 AM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwantumleap View Post
    In the beginning was Good Technique, and the Good Technique was with God, and the Good Technique was God.
    And that Good Technique created by God began with School Figures.


  6. #26
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    ^ I often wonder how figures would be graded under CoP? Would each figure be assigned a base value with GOE?

  7. #27
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    They'd probably be parsed like compulsory dances were, with the figure being marked in segments. Each segment would have a base value and related GOE.
    "I miss footwork that has any kind of a discernible pattern. The goal of a step sequence should not be for a skater to show the same ice coverage as a Zamboni and take about as much time as an ice resurface. " ~ Zemgirl, reflecting on a pre-IJS straight line sequence

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Autumn_girl View Post
    Sometimes coaches (or skaters, or skater's parents) want to have good results as soon as possible. But learning how to jump correctly and improving skating skills always take time. Coaches like Mishin whose students have solid technique would never let the kid to do triples when they are not sure he/she will do it correctly. Other coaches only care if the kid is able to land the triple and win the competition now. That's it

    I agree with you.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    ^ I often wonder how figures would be graded under CoP? Would each figure be assigned a base value with GOE?
    Essentially that is how they were judged. Each figure had a factor based on its difficulty, and judges scored them on a scale of 0 to 6.

    You could think of the scale as being
    0.0 = -3
    1.0 = -2
    2.0 = -1
    3.0 = 0
    4.0 = +1
    5.0 = +2
    6.0 = +3

    The difference is that each judge could use one decimal place to distinguish between all the skaters who deserved 3s and all the skaters who deserved 4s.

    Also, of course, at some point in the process (varied over the decades), each judges' scores were added up and converted into ordinals, not added to the other judges' scores and averaged.

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    I also wonder if skaters who constantly move from coach to coach miss out on some of the natural progression in their technique.

    For example if you learn a loop jump in a group lesson you will probably learn to do it from a 3 turn entrance with your arms and free leg open because that is easiest for most people. If you move on to a private coach they might want you to start entering the jump from back crossovers which give you more speed. After you master that, they might start working on having you retract your arms and use your free leg to get more lift.

    Some coaches will start with the most difficult approach first, some coaches will use the gradual approach but may focus on the skills in a different order.

    Mastering triples would also require off ice fitness training as well. How much can you accomplish if you only spend a year or 2 with each coach?

  11. #31

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    I also wonder if skaters who constantly move from coach to coach miss out on some of the natural progression in their technique.

    For example if you learn a loop jump in a group lesson you will probably learn to do it from a 3 turn entrance with your arms and free leg open because that is easiest for most people. If you move on to a private coach they might want you to start entering the jump from back crossovers which give you more speed. After you master that, they might start working on having you retract your arms and use your free leg to get more lift.

    Some coaches will start with the most difficult approach first, some coaches will use the gradual approach but may focus on the skills in a different order.

    Mastering triples would also require off ice fitness training as well. How much can you accomplish if you only spend a year or 2 with each coach?

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by aliceanne View Post
    For example if you learn a loop jump in a group lesson you will probably learn to do it from a 3 turn entrance with your arms and free leg open because that is easiest for most people.
    I think that the easiest entrance to the loop jump is from a mohawk. Very simple and you go into it well centered and over your skate.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Desire for fast results and not looking long term.
    I agree.

  14. #34

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    I have to say that while I did see plenty of poor technique in Greensboro, I also saw some very good technique. In general, Tammy Gambill's students had beautiful jump technique. Even Caroline Zhang, who only worked with Gambill briefly, showed improvement in her jump technique, particularly on the flip. The lutz still had a decent mule kick in the long program.

    Vanessa Lam's technique isn't amazing, but I don't think she's one of the worst offenders.
    Logic is in the eye of the logician --Gloria Steinem

  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Allen View Post
    Vanessa Lam's technique isn't amazing, but I don't think she's one of the worst offenders.
    Who would you say are? Just curious

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by oleada View Post
    Who would you say are? Just curious
    This isn't new, but honestly, the scratchiest blades I heard in Greensboro were Denney and Barrett. It was shocking to me how noisy their blades were, but her sister, Haven, seemed to have somewhat better technique.

    I have to say, as much as I love her, Ashley Wagner's jumps looked awfully raggedy in Greensboro. We all know that Lisa Ervin is on the cuckoo bird train, but how she missed those edge calls, I don't know.
    Logic is in the eye of the logician --Gloria Steinem

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allen View Post
    We all know that Lisa Ervin is on the cuckoo bird train, but how she missed those edge calls, I don't know.
    She just chooses to ignore them.

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    She just chooses to ignore them.
    She'd have to because I saw quite a few wrong edges during the ladies event that were not called. I know that she has slow motion replay, but even to the naked eye at real speed, the edges were clearly wrong.
    Logic is in the eye of the logician --Gloria Steinem

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allen View Post
    She'd have to because I saw quite a few wrong edges during the ladies event that were not called. I know that she has slow motion replay, but even to the naked eye at real speed, the edges were clearly wrong.
    Yes..Lam as well. It's a shame..it only hurts the skaters if they think their flutz is gone, only to have it called again next fall.

  20. #40

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    Jenna: She [Lisa Ervin] just chooses to ignore them [incorrect take-off edges].

    Allen: She'd have to because I saw quite a few wrong edges during the ladies event that were not called. I know that she has slow motion replay, but even to the naked eye at real speed, the edges were clearly wrong.

    ---

    To be called, incorrect take-off edges must be visible at normal speed from the angle of the technical panel and/or its camera. Slow-motion replay is not used for examining take-off edges (as opposed to underrotated landings).

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