Genesis of bad technique

[RFOS]

I'm pretty sure all of these skaters have pretty strong muscle memory, so I'm going to be certain that if they flutz, they're going to flutz the same amount all the time. And also it's true. Flutzers are always flutzers unless they decide to fix the edge. One another point, I don't think anyone would ever argue that Sasha didn't have an "e" worthy lutz.

I agree that Sasha was generally a strong flutzer and I've never seen any lutz of hers that I wouldn't give an "e" but I'm not completely ruling out the possibility. The tech panel at Nationals last year would have to argue that she didn't have an "e"-worthy lutz considering they didn't give her an "e," but Lisa Ervin was not among them as Sylvia said, so your dig at her personally does not apply.

On the other side, Alissa has always had a very strong outside edge on her lutzes that I've looked at, and I'd be very surprised if someone could find a (relatively recent) example of her flutzing.

The reason I'm not completely ruling out the possibility of them not flutzing at a certain point, is because I've seen a skater on a (mid-level) free skating test do a flutz that was barely distinguishable from a flip (probably worse than the Sasha example I provided) asked to reskate a lutz because of the edge change, and on the reskate she concentrated with all her might on staying on the outside edge, and did it off of a strong outside edge (she fell though ). So maybe Sasha could do a lutz off of an outside edge but doesn't try so hard because if she did she would be more likely to fall. I've also seen a skater (at the intermediate level) who got an "e" on both her lutz and flip in the same program (I agreed with the flip, but was not so clear on the lutz, I'll have to check IceNetwork to look at it again). There was also a competition this season where I thought Fumie both flutzed and lipped in the same program in real time (but I certainly could be wrong about that).

I agree that muscle memory is probably strong among elite skaters (probably stronger than among these mid-level skaters) but I'd expect mid-level skaters who have been skating for years and practice at least several hours a week to have reasonably strong muscle memory also. Also, not all skaters have as pronounced edges on their takeoffs as Czisny and Cohen generally do on their lutz (outside and inside, respectively ). Skaters like Wagner, Lam, and Nagasu had very flat edges on their lutzes in my analysis so it's not hard to imagine that on different days they might err just barely on either side. I recall casually looking at some examples of Kwan's lutzes over the course of her career and thinking that some of them looked slightly flutzed and some on a slight outside edge (I didn't look at enough to determine if there was a specific trend or change in probability over time, and I might change my mind if I looked at them again, or more closely).

Also, I'm not going to argue about Wagner's lutz this season. She has clearly worked hard to make the edge a more clearer outside edge than it has before, but it is definitely a questionable edge.

I agree with respect to the ones from Nationals. I'll have to look at some older videos to see her edges last year, for example (I should look at the ones that weren't called in the past but you think should've been).

[BigB08822]

I am a little late but on page 1 people were discussing Siraj's delay on her axel and salchow. I don't think this is a technical issue at all. She doesn't delay all of her jumps, just those and they are landed very nicely most of the time. To me, putting a delay on a jump shows you get adequate (or more than) height and can make the jump look easy. If she did it on every jump and had trouble getting her rotations then it would be a problem but she does it on the jumps she has mastered. Not a technical problem. It just may not be to your aesthetic liking.

[antmanb]

I'm pretty sure all of these skaters have pretty strong muscle memory, so I'm going to be certain that if they flutz, they're going to flutz the same amount all the time. And also it's true. Flutzers are always flutzers unless they decide to fix the edge. On another point, I don't think anyone would ever argue that Sasha didn't have an "e" worthy lutz.

Did you ever see single and double lutzes from Sasha? I've seen a few warm up singles and doubles and they were mostly proper outside edge lutzes.

Have you ever skated yourself? Do you have any real experience with lutzes, or competing, or the effect of stress on technique? I really strongly disagree with most of what you wrote.

Ant

[smarts1]

^ I would say that's a flutz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH7VV3RlG4k... Plus I was talking about Sasha's triple lutz.

I'm sure if she tried super hard, she could stay on the outside edge, but she'd probably fall.

[briancoogaert]

^ I would say that's a flutz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH7VV3RlG4k... Plus I was talking about Sasha's triple lutz.

I'm sure if she tried super hard, she could stay on the outside edge, but she'd probably fall.

It's definitely a Flutz, and I'm fairly sure she was unable to do even a true single Lutz, considering her 3Flutz was one of the worst ever.
Anyway, even if trying really hard to stay on the outside edge, I doubt she would have been able to rotate three revolutions.

[misskarne]

Question for the bad technique thread:


Why do so many of the current men have issues with their 3As and 4Ts? It's like, they either have one, or the other, but hardly ever both consistently. So many of the men have inconsistent 3As it's not funny. Chan, Rippon, Abbott to name a few.

Why is it that it seems like the older generation Russians (Plushenko, Yagudin, Abt, Kulik, Klimkin) didn't have this problem and had both beautiful 3As and wonderful 4Ts (and I'm sure it wasn't only the Russians, but they were the only ones I could think of off the top of my head) but that the newer generation (including the young Russians) do have this problem?

[briancoogaert]

Maybe the fact that the Axel and the other jumps have very different technique.
Axel forward, others backward.

[orbitz]

Why is it that it seems like the older generation Russians (Plushenko, Yagudin, Abt, Kulik, Klimkin) didn't have this problem and had both beautiful 3As and wonderful 4Ts (and I'm sure it wasn't only the Russians, but they were the only ones I could think of off the top of my head) but that the newer generation (including the young Russians) do have this problem?

Only Plushy and Yag were regularly landing 4toes in competitions.

[gkelly]

Why is it that it seems like the older generation Russians (Plushenko, Yagudin, Abt, Kulik, Klimkin) didn't have this problem and had both beautiful 3As and wonderful 4Ts (and I'm sure it wasn't only the Russians, but they were the only ones I could think of off the top of my head) but that the newer generation (including the young Russians) do have this problem?

Only Plushy and Yag were regularly landing 4toes in competitions.

Kulik only "had" the quad for a year -- the first clean one he landed in competition was 1997 Champions Series Final, and the last one was 1998 Olympics.

Abt had even fewer clean ones.

Klimkin, IIRC, had quads before he had a consistent triple axel.

In any case, most skaters, even the top ones who have many and considerable strengths, have some areas that are weaker than others. It's hardly surprising that even the best might have trouble with either or both of two of the most difficult moves that anyone does.