Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 73
  1. #41

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Age
    48
    Posts
    17,933
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    33055
    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    I think the new judging system is not good for inconsistent skaters !
    You have to do the jumps, with transitions.
    No you don't. But you get better PCS if you do.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  2. #42
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    1,849
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I think there's a combination of a few factors.

    1. In the past there were a handful of exceptionally mentally tough skaters who could rise to the occasion and skate a clean program with almost all the jumps. I put Kwan, Stojko, Plushy, Yags and a few others on that list. I will agree there are fewer mentally tight skaters now.

    2. How we perceive 'consistency'. I think we're thinking of falls mostly. I think there are more falls now because skaters are really going for elements now that maybe they might not have under 6.0 because clean/safe was more important back then, to a degree.

    3. CoP. I do think CoP makes a difference. a) Under 6.0 many skaters built in long rest stops and had tons of breathing room between elements. Count the record number of crosscuts and absence of transitions in a program like Petrenko's. Under 6.0 you can rest and regroup. A very good CoP program doesn't have a moment of peace. b) I don't skate, but something tells me I have no idea how exhausting CoP footwork and spins and transitions are. I think it's much tougher to even make it through a program which is why most skaters make choices, such as not doing a quad and making program more complex or vice versa. c) this system is a big mind game. Under 6.0 you could flutz or underotate and 9 out of 10 times you get full credit. I can't imagine what goes through the minds of someone like Nagasu or Ando, knowing going into a jump that judges are just waiting to downgrade their jumps, etc.

    I think with a system now that expects perfection technically to get points and pushes you to perform beyond your limits the days of consistent clean skates will continue to be rare. I turn to show skating if I want to see that.

  3. #43
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Two-foot skating = BAD
    Posts
    20,463
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    Judges saw underrotations prior to the IJS and judges considered that one skater was forced off the ice by a potentially dangerous nut job intruder in a tutu.
    I don't think they did. In fact they still don't (which was proven beyond any doubt in preceding seasons where judges did not see the < sign on their screens).

    It's only because of the technical panel that underrotated jumps get penalised (only if they rotation is more than 1/4 short, of course).

  4. #44
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    556
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by portia View Post
    How is "inconsistent" defined in figure skating and in general discussions about skaters? I think at times the label "inconsistent" is applied synonymously with the words "jump issues". Simply put, a lot of us (myself included) automatically think of jumps when "inconsistent" is used to describe certain skaters. Granted, a lot of people have also singled out mental preparedness as another component of consistency. To me this may be more pertinent on some fronts.
    .
    I've noticed a number of different definitions and perceptions of "consistency".
    What it actually is, and how to measure it in a way that is accepted by a majority of the fans and skaters ...that doesn't exist.
    Only opinions exist of what it means to be "consistent".

    Is a skater who is on the podium/completes jumps/(fill in the blank) 70% of the time consistent? How about 61.8%.....or 53.764957%?
    Where is the line crossed when they earn the title "inconsistent?
    And over what period of time?

    COP may have led to higher-performing skaters, but is it possible that it's also led to a legion of even more discerning, critical fans?

    A skater's personal story and the inspirational/emotional impact of their performance means more to this fan than arbitrary measures of "consistency".



    -
    Last edited by geod2; 02-06-2011 at 02:29 AM.

  5. #45

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Age
    48
    Posts
    17,933
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    33055
    Quote Originally Posted by geod2 View Post
    COP may have led to higher-performing skaters, but is it possible that it's also led to a legion of even more discerning, critical fans?
    The fact that you get to see the way the event is marked has definately led to this.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  6. #46

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,259
    vCash
    289
    Rep Power
    41317
    Quote Originally Posted by geod2 View Post
    COP may have led to higher-performing skaters, but is it possible that it's also led to a legion of even more discerning, critical fans?

    A skater's personal story and the inspirational/emotional impact of their performance means more to this fan than arbitrary measures of "consistency".
    I agree with this wholeheartedly.

    Especially the second part. Consistent skaters come and go, but for me, the skaters who've got that inspirational story, or that emotional powerhouse of a program, will stay in the heart.

    (Kulik, Abt, Plushenko, Yagudin fan )

  7. #47

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,803
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    36444
    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    I agree with this wholeheartedly.

    Especially the second part. Consistent skaters come and go, but for me, the skaters who've got that inspirational story, or that emotional powerhouse of a program, will stay in the heart.

    (Kulik, Abt, Plushenko, Yagudin fan )
    So only Russian men have that inspirational story or emotional powerhouse of a program?
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  8. #48

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Some place competitive and athletic, but ultimately more like an audition than anything else.
    Posts
    7,780
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    19086
    Have *so many* top skaters ever been THIS inconsistent?
    Quote Originally Posted by Icetalavista View Post
    Czisny
    Abbott
    Rippon
    Nagasu
    Ando
    Asada
    Joubert
    Verner
    Kostner
    Faiella & Scali
    Have there ever been so many TOP SKATERS?

    When I really think about, during every Olympic Quad at which I have seriously looked, there were always two skaters/pairs that were OGM/World Championship contenders, a dark horse solidly in 3rd, and two top-5ers that were bronze medal hopefuls. That means that there were only 5 skaters/pairs per discipline that really had any shot at a medal.

    Well, under the IJS there are a lot more skaters with the status of TOP SKATER because there is a lot more chance that they will be rewarded well at the competitions where they actually skate well rather than the competitions after they skate well so long as they continue to skate well. This basically creates more room at the top because more skaters have a chance at getting 1st Place at a major competition because now they do not have to perform the best at two competitions in a row to get 1st Place at the second.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 02-06-2011 at 08:24 PM.

  9. #49

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Age
    48
    Posts
    17,933
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    33055
    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    Have there ever been so many TOP SKATERS?

    When I really think about, during every Olympic Quad at which I have seriously looked, there were always two skaters/pairs that were OGM/World Championship contenders, a dark horse solidly in 3rd, and two top-5ers that were bronze medal hopefuls. That means that there were only 5 skaters/pairs per discipline that really had any shot at a medal.

    Well, under the IJS there are a lot more skaters with the status of TOP SKATER because there is a lot more chance that they will be rewarded well at the competitions where they actually skate well rather than the competitions after they skate well so long as they continue to skate well. This basically creates more room at the top because more skaters have a chance at getting 1st Place at a major competition because now they do not have to perform the best at two competitions in a row to get 1st Place at the second.
    I definately think there is something in this. It is not just about jumps which is what used to be held up as the standard. Now you have to be an allrounder.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  10. #50
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    6,262
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by millyskate View Post
    ...Apart from Kwan and Plushenko, I can't think of any skater who skated clear or near clean every single time. And even PLushenko had his moments...he was just a long way ahead of the pack in terms of jumping ability...
    I would add Alexei Yagudin and Elvis Stojko to this list. Both men were scarily consistent.

  11. #51
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    1,849
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Civic View Post
    I would add Alexei Yagudin and Elvis Stojko to this list. Both men were scarily consistent.
    Agreed. I remember when Stojko fell in the 1996 short there was a quote that his butt only hit the ice like once or twice in competition before that...in total! I assume they meant senior competition but he hit the world scene in 1990!

  12. #52
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    1,849
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    I agree with this wholeheartedly.

    Especially the second part. Consistent skaters come and go, but for me, the skaters who've got that inspirational story, or that emotional powerhouse of a program, will stay in the heart.

    (Kulik, Abt, Plushenko, Yagudin fan )
    Yeah well unfortunately those days are in the rear view mirror. You have to go watch show skating to find the real emotional performances.
    The ISU has had to put in measures over the last little while to promote and reward the difficulty and athleticism of the sport and not let it come to theatrics and the more intangible elements.

    The problem first arose when dance almost lost Olympic status because of the ill-defined technical elements and the focus on theatrics like we saw in late 80s and early 90s. Salt Lake City was the icing on the cake where the Olympic governing body mandated that this sport turn to more objective and transparent marking systems.

    So now there isn't much of a mark for "emotion" although it factors in a little. Even PCS is very technical as there are more 'countable' things such as using all your edges and turns, using every beat or note of music and adding in transitions of field and other moves.

    Skating is now more of a sport...much to the chagrin of those who really just want to be moved or entertained by the performance.

  13. #53

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,259
    vCash
    289
    Rep Power
    41317
    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    So only Russian men have that inspirational story or emotional powerhouse of a program?
    I never said that. What I meant was that it was part of their charm.


    That said, while I know the ISU were trying to make it more like a sport, one of the things I hate about the IJS is the emotionless, bland programs that all look the same after a while.

  14. #54

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    In Canuck Land, hey!
    Age
    56
    Posts
    3,819
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    2416
    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    I never said that. What I meant was that it was part of their charm.


    That said, while I know the ISU were trying to make it more like a sport, one of the things I hate about the IJS is the emotionless, bland programs that all look the same after a while.
    Bland is in the eyes of the beholder.
    Some of like to see more than just jumps or over emoting.
    Crazy about sports!

  15. #55

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,259
    vCash
    289
    Rep Power
    41317
    Quote Originally Posted by professordeb View Post
    Bland is in the eyes of the beholder.
    Some of like to see more than just jumps or over emoting.
    So obviously, in your point of view, because I happen to have named Plushenko and Yagudin on my favourites list, I know nothing about skating or think it's only about the jumps.

    I know it's not about the jumps. Yes, the programs are still bland. And boring. Because there's NOT enough expressiveness and what expressiveness there is is completely fake. Case in point, Lysacek's Olympic LP. Cold fish central. That was the blandest, most boring program I have ever seen.

    The bigger part of my point is, the programs ALL LOOK THE SAME. There's no individuality anymore.

  16. #56

    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    at FSU
    Posts
    3,924
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    2790
    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    I never said that. What I meant was that it was part of their charm.


    That said, while I know the ISU were trying to make it more like a sport, one of the things I hate about the IJS is the emotionless, bland programs that all look the same after a while.
    And how is nothing but cross cuts and a flaily arm movement around the ice between jumping and spinning emotional? (I refer to some of your favourites).Bland programs? You need to watch some programs pre IJS before you spout this sort of stuff. Check out the pairs program that won the 76 Olympics with the program that won the 2006 Olympics then tell me which program has more emotion in it. Ilia Kulik gave one heck of a boring program to win the Olympics (old judging system so he did what was needed), as did Plush in Torino. I mean as in ticking off elements with little in between. DOn't get me wrong, I love seeing great jumps and spins and Plush is one of the best jumpers the world has ever seen. His jump consistency is fecking incredible. His spins and everything else is at best average (in my opinion), and I'm sure his jump cosistancy has come at the cost of not being able to work the other elements required these days. Skaters like Chan excite me as he has it all... except for the consistency part, but I would watch his programs with one fall (not 4 because that did bother me) over a clean one of your favourites anyday. And no, I'm truly not trying to be argumentative with you.
    I do agree that some of the code whoring that goes on (and I totally understand why the skaters do this, to accumulate points) can lead to generic elements (Biellman spin, dance lifts pulling your head to your foot... or the other way round) but there are some who can code whore and still put out incredibly emotional performances (Buttle, Alissa C, Takahashi, Rochette Abbott, etc.). Gone are the days when a skater only has to work on jumps and spins, so much of the training time now is spent on so many other aspects of a routine.
    This is why strong basics taught from the earliest age are important. The hard part is trying to get kids to work on these as jumps and spins are more exciting when your younger.
    I guess the hard thing for a lot of people to accept is why God would allow me to go running through their yards, yelling and spinning around.


  17. #57
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    556
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Ozzisk8tr View Post
    ... but there are some who can code whore and still put out incredibly emotional performances (Buttle, Alissa C, Takahashi, Rochette Abbott, etc.)...
    It looks like there are 3 main pieces to this puzzle:
    -> "Code whoring",
    -> Inspiration/expression/musicality (words to that effect),
    -> Consistency....

    It seems like top skaters can achieve 2 out of 3, but it's really rare (and maybe it always has been) to be strong in all three areas....

    If that's true, then consistency would be my personal lowest priority of the three, with a balance of the first two being the ideal.
    But my priorities aren't necessarily right...it's just those are the skaters I enjoy watching the most.
    ... others would disagree.



    -
    Last edited by geod2; 02-07-2011 at 05:20 AM.

  18. #58
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    48
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I'm not sure it is necessarily the skaters who are inconsistent or whether they are showing that they are in fact human therefore prone to the frailty of humanity. Under IJS every part of the performance is scrutinised and marked on the performance given on that day and that day alone. Certainly the video replay has impacted as well, under rotation on a bad day never used to impact greatly on the overall score under 6.0 whereas now it can't be overlooked.

    It comes back to personal opinion which gets raised time and time again- is a well exacuted triple a better asset in a program then a cheated quad(most are) with an ugly landing. Why shouldn't a well centred spin with elegant postions be worth as much as a jump.

    I agree that the over use of arms is often distracting and often detracts from the preformance but it comes down to how well these movements fit with the music and the rest of the program.

    I guess we could always do figure skating competitions almost diving/aerial skiing style- 3 jumps, 3 spins and a step sequence marked on degree of difficulty and exection. it would cut down on the time its takes for competitions and training time because basic skating skills wouldn't matter at all. We could even leave out the step sequence because they get boring and repititious.

  19. #59

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,259
    vCash
    289
    Rep Power
    41317
    Quote Originally Posted by Ozzisk8tr View Post
    And how is nothing but cross cuts and a flaily arm movement around the ice between jumping and spinning emotional? (I refer to some of your favourites).Bland programs? You need to watch some programs pre IJS before you spout this sort of stuff. Check out the pairs program that won the 76 Olympics with the program that won the 2006 Olympics then tell me which program has more emotion in it. Ilia Kulik gave one heck of a boring program to win the Olympics (old judging system so he did what was needed), as did Plush in Torino.

    Bull. I'll have you know that of the 80-100 programs downloaded onto my computer, maybe 3 or 4 are IJS programs. Don't you dare call me ignorant because I happen to love those Russian men. I've had it up to the back teeth. Not all Plushenko fans are stupid, you know.

    No, I never liked Kulik's Olympic program - but his Romeo and Juliet and Aladdin LPs were stunning. You ever want to see transitions, watch Aladdin. His Ina Bauer in particular was beautiful, especially in the leadup to his 3Lz or 3A. If ever there was a skater who I reckon would be perfectly suited to the COP conversion if he came back...Kulik would be the one. But of course, he would be highly uncommon, as he never had any trouble with his 3A or his 4T, the shock!

    I get really irritated when people have a go at Plushenko for being "emotionless" in Torino. Hello, it was The Godfather! His character was a mafia boss. Mafia bosses are supposed to be emotionless!

    I have watched dozens of 6.0 programs, from Yagudin's Gladiator to Gordeeva and Grinkov's Olympic winning performances. And I still, and maybe always will, prefer the 6.0 program styles. Yagudin's footwork might not even be level 1 under IJS, but it was always fun, unusual and distinctive. Nowadays everyone does the same thing in slightly different combinations. You only ever get to see a skater's personality in exhibition shows, unless they go off-wall like Weir and Plushenko. I'm not saying that Plushenko's Vancouver LP was great. It's crap. I hate Tango Amore. Love the music, hate the program, want to kick the choreographer. It's cheesy, it didn't do enough, and it was thin. But it was also passionate and fun. And that was something I didn't see a lot of that night.

  20. #60

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    3,177
    vCash
    400
    Rep Power
    32148
    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    I get really irritated when people have a go at Plushenko for being "emotionless" in Torino. Hello, it was The Godfather! His character was a mafia boss. Mafia bosses are supposed to be emotionless!
    that is actually the funniest justification for Plushenko's LP in Torino I have ever read. Of course he meant to be emotionless and tick the jumps off, that's what Mafia Bosses do!

    Anger not being an emotional at all?!

    Ant

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •