Never Write Them Off!

[judgejudy27]

I wouldn't lump all those pairs together. Pang & Tong are certainly capable of beating Zhangs and S&S, and most certainly Russian P&T, who were never on par with the top teams.

If P&T skate like they did at the Olympics in the LP, they can definitely rival S&S. S&S have stronger basics, yes, but P&T have much more of a connection. When they are on (which is rare), they are very lovely and can be enchanting.

P&T lack consistency and can be sloppy. If they fix these two issues, they might well beat a clean S&S.

I have to respectfully disagree. Pang & Tong would not even come close to beating a clean S&S. They never have in the past, so why would they now. Keep in mind this season at the GPF in the short program we got an indication how the two stack up mutually clean, S&S way ahead as usual. Savchenko & Szolkowy had their worst season of skating ever last season (relative to their abilities at each given time). Had they been skating as well as they were this season they would have been a major threat to Shen & Zhou, and not lost even once to Pang & Tong I am pretty sure. Remember that since fall of 2007 outside of early 2010 when S&S were struggling mightily with consistency, confidence, and the pressure of both S&Z and the Olympics, Pang & Tong only have beaten S&S one other time since then (at the 09 GPF when S&S bombed).

I do agree P&T have more connection which is their only artistic edge and they have a better triple twist which is their only technical edge. That is it. S&S have stronger throws, much stronger lifts, stronger jumps, stronger in all other elements, better choreography, much better basic skating as you said, superior lines, better unision, much more polish (combining the two partners). The Germans by far outclass Pang & Tong overall in both the technical and presentation side of things if both are at their best.

As for the Zhangs back when they were at their best from 2005-2009 they were regularly beating Pang & Tong, and often by huge margins. Sometimes both pairs would skate cleanly in the short and the Zhangs would be 7 points ahead. And at an event like the 06 Olympics the Zhangs had a disaester and still won silver where a clean Pang & Tong settled for 4th place. At their best the Zhangs are technically far superior to Pang & Tong.

As for Petrova & Tikhonov, except for the 2006 Worlds (which many thought was a ripoff) a clean or reasonably good Petrova & Tikhonov always beat Pang & Tong. Pang & Tong only came out ahead when P&T had problems. If both teams had mistakes or both were clean Petrova & Tikhonov always won. Petrova & Tikhonov have a gold, silver, 2 bronzes, 2 4ths, at Worlds, and have won the European title twice. I think it is wrong to say they were never on par with the top teams, atleast they were certainly no less so than Pang & Tong. If you want to imply Petrova & Tikhonov were a 2nd tier sort of team, Pang & Tong must be too then. Nobody ever considered Pang & Tong to have a prayer of winning the Oly Gold the way teams like S&S, Z&S, S&Z, S&P, B&S, T&M were all atleast considered for a possible Olympic title once or more this decade, and most years they arent even considered threats to win Worlds (basically almost no years other than the 2 they won, and actually their 06 win was pretty much a shock at that) so it is not like they were ever considered one of the big guns anymore than Russian P&T.

Remember the Zhangs and Petrova & Tikhonov have both beaten both Shen & Zhou and Totmianina & Marinin, two teams Pang & Tong were never once able to beat even when they had major errors. That is another indication those 2 teams at their best are better than them, as they were more a threat to the very best teams. Heck Petrova & Tikhonov in their World Championship year beat Sale & Pelletier (who were already a big threat) 3 times in a row, something Pang & Tong would never have been capable of. And atleast they dominated most of their World Championship season, not winning Worlds by default since the reigning Oly winners both times (T&M in 06, S&Z in 2010), as I said two teams that P&T have never beaten before, skipped out.

I actually think Pang & Tong's biggest asset is their consistency. In that sense they are similar to Petrova & Tikhonov. They sometimes make mistakes but they rarely implode too badly or beat themselves, they can just be beaten by better pairs (which happens often). The sloppiness in her skating especialy can never be fixed, it just isnt in her.

[Squibble]

Agree, but I guess one, Johnny Weir, is the despised exception ... yeah, I know it's mainly because (among many posters' beliefs) Johnny's just "a whiner who can't accept the scoring system."

He is not an exception. He is retired (but says he wants to make a comeback season). If he had remained in competition this season and delivered an SP and LP at Nationals on a par with what he did at the Olympics in 2010, he would have won. But that's irrelevant. "Never right them off" does not apply to skaters who do not get out there and compete.

[JasperBoy]

A great thread! Although I am a bit concerned about encouraging Fumie to skate any longer. She is really struggling now.

I want to add my current fave, Dylan Moscovitch. After many years of skating singles and pairs with no podium finishes, he just won the Canadian pairs title at the age of 26.

Eric Radford, who won his first-ever pairs medal (silver), just turned 26 as well.

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I think Shizuka Arakawa would be one of the biggest examples.

[mysticchic]

Rudy Galindo nuff said

[shirley]

Not my favourite lady ever, but add me in for Shizuka. She had some great qualities to her skating that maybe was overlooked/overshadowed when skating during the Kwan era. Then, out of nowhere...boom.

[Japanfan]

I have to respectfully disagree. . . . Nobody ever considered Pang & Tong to have a prayer of winning the Oly Gold

Well, some would say they deserved to win Olympic Gold in 2010, and they did win the free skate.

I think Pang & Tong's artistry has improved tremendously in the past two seasons. I don't think Zhangs remain the superior team. P&T are late bloomers, much as S&Z were

It's possible that the best is yet to come from them, they are still growing. But they do need to gain consistency if we are ever going to see it and have them go head-to-head with S&S. 4CCs in 2009 and last season appear to be exceptions and they are back to making sloppy mistakes once again.

[judgejudy27]

Pang & Tong are better than the Zhangs now I agree. However that is because the Zhangs seem on the way down and out more than anything else. The Zhangs from 2005-2009 were the better team.

[Squibble]

Oh add Miki Ando to the list! She won Japanese nationals by a HUGE margin this year in a deep field and she hadn't won in like 4 years or so. Also if she manages to win Worlds this year, or even medal there, that would be a big deal, especially because so many people thought she was done after the 2006 olympics, and then she went on the win worlds the next year!

And now she's won Four Continents at the age of 23.

Never count her out!

[briancoogaert]

And now she's won Four Continents at the age of 23.

Never count her out!

And if she wins Worlds this year

[Squibble]

And if she wins Worlds this year

There are skaters I'd rather see win, but if she does win it will be a major accomplishment. After she withdrew from worlds in 2008 in the middle of her Long Program, there were a lot of posters here who said she'd never win Worlds again because she couldn't beat Asada and Kim.

[pinky166]

And if she wins Worlds this year

Oh come on. She might not be the most interesting skater, but I can totally see her winning worlds this season, and I don't think anyone would be TOO upset if she won fairly. I bet most people would take less issue with Miki winning worlds than if say Carolina or Rachael won worlds.

[bardtoob]

Oh come on. She might not be the most interesting skater, but I can totally see her winning worlds this season, and I don't think anyone would be TOO upset if she won fairly. I bet most people would take less issue with Miki winning worlds than if say Carolina or Rachael won worlds.

I would have no problem with Rachael, Miki, or Carolina winning Worlds so long as their content would have been competitive post 1990.

[pinky166]

I would have no problem with Rachael, Miki, or Carolina winning Worlds so long as their content would have been competitive post 1990.

Me either.

[briancoogaert]

Oh come on. She might not be the most interesting skater, but I can totally see her winning worlds this season, and I don't think anyone would be TOO upset if she won fairly. I bet most people would take less issue with Miki winning worlds than if say Carolina or Rachael won worlds.

I really think she can win fairly. But I can't imagine a skater as Miki being a 2-time World champion !

[Vash01]

Nice thread.

I think during the GP probably most people were counting Mao out. She seems to be back and getting better. Watch out at worlds. She is not done yet.

Irina Slutskaya was counted out twice in her career. In 1999 she did not even make the world team, I think. She came back strong in 2000 and won the GPF with two 3-3 combinations. She surpassed that achievement by winning the world championship in 2005 after she had gone through some major health problems. In 2004 at worlds she was something like 9th or 10th.

Chen Lu at the 1998 Olympics- how many would have given her a chance at a medal?

[screech]

Jeff Buttle - after 2006 O's he failed to medal at that year's Worlds, got seriously injured and had to miss the GP series, didn't medal at the next year's worlds, didn't do as well at the following year's GP series as usual, lost his Canadian title to a 17 year old wunderkind, then blew everyone out of the water winning the 2008 Worlds by a huge margin on the strength of his technical elements (weirdly losing on PCS to Joubert), having finally skated a clean LP. And at the age of 25 1/2.

I'd also have to say Anabelle Langlois. After Sale/Pelletier retired, she was expected to win Canadians a few times with Patrice Archetto, but it never happened until she finally won with Cody Hay in 2008 at the age of 28, 8 years after winning her first Canadian medal.

[judgejudy27]

I bet most people would take less issue with Miki winning worlds than if say Carolina or Rachael won worlds.

If Carolina could ever put it all together she would be way better than Miki, and under fair judging atleast should easily beat her in that scenario.

[smarts1]

^ That's a big if and it sucks because Carolina is so much more talents than many of the other girls we have today.

Besides, has Carolina ever skated a fully packed (lutzes and flips), clean LP before?

[Seerek]

I'm not sure about Carolina ever having an LP where she landed all of her planned content - she managed 6 triples at the 2003 European Championships Free Skate