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Thread: Mirai vs. Frank

  1. #61
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    Not sure if it's been posted, but it's a quite insightful article about Mirai and Frank's relationship, Frank's coaching style and Mirai's mental issue, with cute mention of Evan and Mirai's friendship.

    Nagasu's biggest challenge could be her own doubts


    "I've grown up in a culture that it's more important to hear the negative aspects and where you can improve rather than the compliments," Nagasu said. "A lot of times compliments can go to your head. So I'd rather hear the negative parts. But sometimes it's not always good, so Frank does a really good job with that."

    Indeed, it was Carroll's no-nonsense style that made Nagasu want to train with him in the first place.
    She switched that summer to Carroll, who demands discipline and focus at every practice. ...

    And what Carroll didn't expect of Nagasu, training mate Evan Lysacek did. The Vancouver gold medalist works so hard Carroll often had to hold him back, and Nagasu couldn't help but be influenced by his work ethic.

    "Evan and I have been texting each other and he asked me about Mirai, and I said, `She needs you, get here. She needs you to scream at her,'" Carroll said with a laugh. "She always felt she couldn't get away with anything because she wasn't working as hard as he was so she'd better try harder. He was a great influence. And they're very good friends. He's sort of like her big brother."

    Added Nagasu, "He never has a bad day and I really like training with him because it motivates me. ... If I could copy him and become a champion, that would be great."
    "She's a very emotional girl," Carroll said. "Unfortunately, this sport is based on getting the job done and being consistent. And consistency is not just doing the elements and skating consistently. It's also handling yourself consistently. That part of her is something that she really will need to do in the future, be able to control her emotions better."

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    The choice isn't between either being strict and nasty or too lenient.

    You can maintain discipline whilst at the same time being there for your skaters when it matters.

    And discipline doesn't mean shouting at people or telling them they sucked. Discipline should be maintained through consistency and respect .
    Yes, any coach in any sport who wants to instill focus and emotional control in their athlete needs to first set the example themselves.
    FC has an enviable record, but honestly, how can he (with a straight face) tell Mirai not to cry in the K&C while he allows himself to get noticeably pissed and abusive there.
    Oh well, this is all probably much ado about nothing.

    .

  3. #63
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    Frank was much more supportive for Kwan at 1997 nats than for Mirai. Maybe because Mirai isn't such a famous skater yet? I don't believe he would tell her something like that if she was as much decorated competitior as Kwan was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    Frank coached Christopher Bowman from 1973-74 (6 years old) to 1991, including taking him to drug rehab in the late 80s. That's hardly lack of investment.

    Chin's mom left for greener pastures after Frank took Tiffany all the way to a Jr. World Championship.

    Goebel wanted a coach more like the coach he ended his career with rather than Frank, but Frank still coached him to Olympic Bronze and World Silver before Tim left.
    I have read it differently in various places on all 3 counts. In fact I saw a televised interview where Goebel said himself that Frank "fired me". I also read a direct quote in an interview with Carroll that he wished he'd had the courage to tell Bowman that he was a drug addict.

  5. #65

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    Frank? abusive? Otay....

    Quote Originally Posted by Extranjera
    Frank was much more supportive for Kwan at 1997 nats than for Mirai. Maybe because Mirai isn't such a famous skater yet? I don't believe he would tell her something like that if she was as much decorated competitior as Kwan was.
    This is bull. Michelle went out there & tried her best; Mirai didn't. Michelle had a comp like Mirai at the Goodwill Games, I forgot what year but both she & Tim Goebel just totally blew if for no good reason & Frank acted exactly the same to them as to Mirai. When your parents are disappointed in you because they know you could do better but just didn't try your best do they say it's ok or do they show their disapproval?
    Last edited by taf2002; 01-31-2011 at 06:34 PM.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by aliceanne View Post
    I also read a direct quote in an interview with Carroll that he wished he'd had the courage to tell Bowman that he was a drug addict.
    Well, he was. It is very sad.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post



    This is bull. Michelle went out there & tried her best; Mirai didn't.
    Why exactly do you think Mirai didn't try her best?

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extranjera View Post
    Why exactly do you think Mirai didn't try her best?
    She flubbed a spin of all things. A spin she should be able to do in her sleep with both hands and one skate tied behind her back. Even Alissa in her really bad freeskates never messed up a spin that I can recall.

    Maybe Frank is fed up with her. Maybe Mirai really does need to get her head on straight for once. If Frank is right and she didn't get her s*it together until three weeks before Nationals, then he has every right to be PO'ed.

    I don't pay my coach to be my very bestest friend and coddle me and tell me everything is ok when I place badly. I pay her to kick my ass and push me when I don't want to be pushed and make me the best skater I can be. And that's what Mirai's family pays Frank for. If Mirai isn't holding up her end of the deal, to skate and train and be prepared for these situations, it's not Frank's fault.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extranjera View Post
    Frank was much more supportive for Kwan at 1997 nats than for Mirai. Maybe because Mirai isn't such a famous skater yet? I don't believe he would tell her something like that if she was as much decorated competitior as Kwan was.
    Maybe because Kwan's problems in 1997 were due to factors beyond her control such as boot problems and a growth spurt? If I recall correctly, she also talked about skating to defend rather than attacking. Mirai, OTOH, seems to be succumbing to pressure and making silly errors in giving titles away. She certainly has it within her to beat both Czisny and Flatt at her best, so I can't entirely blame Frank for getting exasperated with her. Perhaps this season Mirai's been hampered by a lack of training time due to recovery from an injury, but still, she has failed to deliver enough times after leading in the short that it's safe to say her problems aren't entirely physical.

    And I don't think Frank tiptoed around Michelle just because she was so decorated. I recall him making comments about her having to lose weight at some point ("fat doesn't fly"?), and immediately after their split I think he said something to the effect of how athletes who've been at the top for a while want to start hearing only what they want to hear.

  10. #70
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    Fs is rather sensitive in my opinion, Frank is not the Karoly family, I wonder what would happen if fs had a coach like Bela.
    Caroll should have been more gentle but I can see he is rather old now and runs out of patience and courage, every season Mirai doesnt deliver it is for him a cost, time cost, sentimental, reputation, dunno. But how many skaters does he train, is it possible to manage all? I think i counted a dozen at nationals.
    Orser was more bitchy, he was used to Yuna´s all sweety OH MY GOD world record breaking marks , and now he cant handle Adam. I havent noticed him with Gao.

    The bottom line is that Mirai ´s sp wont be at Worlds and I loved the portions part so much

  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by neptune View Post
    Yes, but he seems to show very little compassion or empathy or gentleness. Going out there and attacking all one's elements isn't just a piece of cake. Has Frank ever won a gold medal? Maybe that's what Mirai wanted to do but she was simply unable. No crime in that necessarily. Berating someone when they're down can easily qualify as verbal/emotional abuse. Maybe there's a time and place for his remarks, but directly afterward in the K&C might not always be the best idea. Furthermore, it's not wise to use a "unisex" approach to criticizing students IMO. Something that might be appropriate to say to a young man may not necessarily be appropriate for a young woman.

    And, honestly, which approach is going to effect more positive change in a skater:

    You idiot--why didn't you attack???

    or

    I'm sorry your performance didn't go as we had planned. It hurts, I know. Hopefully this is something we can learn from.
    Frank did call her an idiot and he didn't ask her why she didn't attack. He made a statement about her beating herself and then said he was sorry it happened that way.
    Have a Great Day

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Orser was a total knob too. And it's not the first time.

    Manon Perron is a perfect example of a coach who was extremely strict but never behaved in ways mentioned in this thread.
    Agreed on both counts.

    I could just as easily start an Orser thread about what a knob he is, but I think that topic has been done to death already...

  13. #73
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    i doublt if frank was more supportive for michelle than Mirai.
    i think Mirai has too big of an ego.
    for me personally i think she shouldn't have won the Us nationals at a young age and by winning the way she did.
    she won the short, 3rd and long and won overall. okay. but she skated decent not great. they overmarked her pc's.
    in other words they held her up-marked up her pc's scores a full point compared to caroline zhang, now gao and these other skaters.
    she was good but not that good yet.

    she got to the olympics, held up.thought she should be held up.
    but i think Mirai is worse enemy. so far outside of junior nationals , i have yet to see her fight in the long program. she skates through her program, but doesn't fight. -well why should she, everyone is telling her she is best skater in world, you don't have to fight -scores will come even though you screw up, we will hold you up. pcs and other wise , why-
    1)frank-his reputation
    2) you are a decent skater,
    3) you do have good presentation,
    4) you are told you are gifted.
    5) she feels she entitled to preferential treatment.
    but unless you fight somone with less gifts and more practice will beat you out. how they keep fighting in their programs when they mess up, you give up
    when things go mirai way-she is happy , when they don't she doesn't seem to understand why.she expects it to go her way all the time.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by haribobo View Post

    This is why I like John Nicks. He cultivates amazing skaters without stomping on their being.
    This made me think of his infamous quote at the 2000 Nationals: "I brought 2 guns with me. One fired, and the other one didn't" (referencing Sasha and NNN). Pretty blunt assessment that no doubt affected NNN's "being"

  15. #75

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    To me it isn't even about the stuff Frank said to her in the K&C, it's more about the stuff he's saying to the media. If I were Mirai I would be questioning why I (or my family) am paying this man when he is saying all of these embarrassing things in public. Sure there is an interest in why she didn't perform up to the level she could, but why spew it out in such a fashion that makes Mirai look like a lazy slacker?? He could say, she wasn't prepared enough. Better luck next season, and that is that. The trash-talking makes one wonder if he's trying to save his own image over the situation, whereas the "tough love" could definitely be done between Frank and Mirai alone.

  16. #76
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    From Phil Hersh
    Nagasu's case is the most perplexing.

    Her coach, Frank Carroll, told me Sunday he was infuriated by the way Nagasu appeared to give up at the end of her program and her posture as she waited on the ice for the scores of the previous skater. He felt she was all but mooning the audience (without exposing any flesh, of course) by bending over repeatedly in the middle of the rink to tie her skates.

    Her technical marks were only ninth best in the field.

    ``She needs an awakening,'' Carroll said. ``Maybe this is the slap that will do it.''
    ...``She had such a great season it was hard to get her juices going again,'' Carroll said. ``And not having Evan in the rink beside her every day to kick her butt and tell her when she was ridiculous also was a factor.

    ``She has been a bit all over the place. Sometimes I don't understand where she is coming from. I feel she trained better than what I got (Saturday), but she didn't get her act together until about three weeks ago. That's not really long enough.''

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extranjera View Post
    Frank was much more supportive for Kwan at 1997 nats than for Mirai. Maybe because Mirai isn't such a famous skater yet? I don't believe he would tell her something like that if she was as much decorated competitior as Kwan was.
    It's probably cuz the situation was slightly different-- Mirai didn't attack, Kwan did, but it just didn't work. And besides, Mirai didn't bomb as badly as Kwan did at that Nationals.

  18. #78

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    But even MK has been bluntly, and roundly criticized by her coach to the press (Rafael in 2004); this was not a private conversation between the two, and she had performed well and won:

    "We are going to have a serious conversation after the world championships," he was saying. "If she decides to skate (at the 2006 Winter Olympic Games, which she has said is quite likely), we will make plans and talk about trying to get new stuff into the programs, like combination spins and new positions and other things like that, if she really wants to get better and compete with the up-and-coming skaters.

    "Everything starts to cook now and you cannot cook when you have nothing in the refrigerator," he continued. "You should develop, right? If you do not develop, somebody can come up and beat you."


    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/colum...-brennan_x.htm
    "Once you've skated together long enough, and you're really good friends, you can close your eyes, put your hand out and she's right there." Joe Dolkiewicz, 2011 US Novice Pairs Bronze Medalist

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    He felt she was all but mooning the audience...
    Oh boy that is an awful thing to say to media...

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by senorita View Post
    Oh boy that is an awful thing to say to media...
    But did Frank say that or was that Hersh's extrapolation of what he said?

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