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  1. #21

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    I loved the quality of her 3T/3T & hated the fact that Dick & Peggy played it down so much. Listening to them, you would have thought that anyone could do it, it was so easy. And the fact is, very few of Michelle's competitors had any 3/3. I always thought, if it is so easy why aren't we seeing more of them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    I agree with Nationals 1999, it's the best out of all, 2001 Worlds is also wonderful but the second toe is a bit underrotated. Today, it could have got 70% value.
    I don't think so, it was completely rotated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hydro View Post
    I don't think so, it was completely rotated.
    Sorry but in the second jump she put her blade in the second 1/4 of a turn, though it was close to the borderline. Now it depends on the celler. It WAS underrotated. The first toe was actually a bit underrotated too but it certainly fitted into the first quarter. If you want I can make an extra slow motion of it and upload to mediafire.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    I loved the quality of her 3T/3T & hated the fact that Dick & Peggy played it down so much. Listening to them, you would have thought that anyone could do it, it was so easy. And the fact is, very few of Michelle's competitors had any 3/3. I always thought, if it is so easy why aren't we seeing more of them?
    Because it was NOT that easy. Irina was always lauded as being so much superior to Michelle wrt triple-triple jumps. However, although Irina attempted "harder" triple-triples with 3loop instead of 3toe as the second jump, the actual quality of her triple-triples really wasn't superior to Michelle's "easy" 3T-3T (see other thread for evidence). She definitely went for them, but fell or fell out on many and others were greatly under-rotated. She did get amazing height on her jumps, but the landings weren't nearly as good as the air.

    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    Sorry but in the second jump she put her blade in the second 1/4 of a turn, though it was close to the borderline. Now it depends on the celler. It WAS underrotated. The first toe was actually a bit underrotated too but it certainly fitted into the first quarter. If you want I can make an extra slow motion of it and upload to mediafire.
    I appreciate your making the compilations of Michelle's and Irina's triple-triple combinations, but is it really necessary to examine in super slo-mo detail whether a jump was closer to 300 or 260 degrees of revolution -- a decade after the fact? I guess some may think it worthwhile, but to me it seems just a tad excessive (actually more than just a bit). Obviously YMMV.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatingfan5 View Post
    Because it was NOT that easy. Irina was always lauded as being so much superior to Michelle wrt triple-triple jumps. However, although Irina attempted "harder" triple-triples with 3loop instead of 3toe as the second jump, the actual quality of her triple-triples really wasn't superior to Michelle's "easy" 3T-3T (see other thread for evidence). She definitely went for them, but fell or fell out on many and others were greatly under-rotated. She did get amazing height on her jumps, but the landings weren't nearly as good as the air.

    I appreciate your making the compilations of Michelle's and Irina's triple-triple combinations, but is it really necessary to examine in super slo-mo detail whether a jump was closer to 300 or 260 degrees of revolution -- a decade after the fact? I guess some may think it worthwhile, but to me it seems just a tad excessive (actually more than just a bit). Obviously YMMV.
    Well, I just wanted to say that I don't consider triple-triple from Worlds 2001 as the best. Why? Because it was underrotated. Then someone says it's rotated which is not true. This is why I came with an idea of making the slow motion. That's all

    Well, difficulty of Irina's combos is way bigger than Michelle's and even though her landing weren't as good she should be given some credit for landing something like 3Lz+3L, even if underroted or lack of flow. This is not only about the loop instead of a toeloop at the end. This is also about the first jump. 3Lz or 3 S instead of toeloop. 3Lz+3L is damn difficult and this is why I admire so much Irina and Miki for landing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    Sorry but in the second jump she put her blade in the second 1/4 of a turn, though it was close to the borderline. Now it depends on the celler. It WAS underrotated. The first toe was actually a bit underrotated too but it certainly fitted into the first quarter. If you want I can make an extra slow motion of it and upload to mediafire.
    Sure, go ahead and make a super-duper slo mo of the video. You'll see it was not under-rotated by more than 1/4 of a turn. It was obviously a complete triple.

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    I do see the slight UR on her second 3toe at 2001 Worlds. It isn't visible at all from the first angle, you have to watch the replay of it. Not sure if it would be called but no more than < for sure. My favorite was 99 Nats and 99 Skate America. The first 3toe at 99 Skate America was huge and covered so much ice! Probably one of the best 3toes she ever did.
    -Brian
    "Michelle would never be caught with sausage grease staining her Vera Wang." - rfisher

  8. #28
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    Re: Michelle's warmup where Peggy mentioned her practising the 3S+3Lo in '01-- I had the same question a while back in an old Kwan thread, and someone here on FSU did confirm that they did see that combo live, indeed. So, I'd be curious if that poster can come back and tell us how it looked at practice.

    I'd love to see any videos surfacing of her 3+3loops attempt, however! The only one we have is '01 SC...same for Arakawa, i'd like to see her supposed 3lz+3loop in practice too....

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigB08822 View Post
    99 Skate America
    This

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallcolor View Post
    Re: Michelle's warmup where Peggy mentioned her practising the 3S+3Lo in '01-- I had the same question a while back in an old Kwan thread, and someone here on FSU did confirm that they did see that combo live, indeed. So, I'd be curious if that poster can come back and tell us how it looked at practice.

    I'd love to see any videos surfacing of her 3+3loops attempt, however! The only one we have is '01 SC...same for Arakawa, i'd like to see her supposed 3lz+3loop in practice too....
    Arakawa's recent 3Lz+3L looks wonderful so I'm sure her attempts in her copetitive prime were as good as current ones. I'd love to see it as well. Btw, I'm preparing video with Shizuka's triple-triples as well.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallcolor View Post
    same for Arakawa, i'd like to see her supposed 3lz+3loop in practice too....
    Here's one she attempted last year.

  12. #32
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    I think the 3S+3Lo comment is one of those on-air commentary mistakes that has become legend.

    Michelle had two 3Lz and two 3T (in combination with each other) in her "Song of the Black Swan" program. After landing the 3T+3T, she couldn't attempt another 3Lo. I find it very hard to believe she would try a 3S+3Lo in warmup and risk injuring herself.

    Anyone who has ever seen Michelle warm-up (or do her runthroughs) knows she is very methodical. She doesn't just throw in jumps. This reminds me of postings I read about "new" triple-triple combinations she was trying after SLC. I was at these so-called events, and many sessions that were not open to the public, and never saw her even attempt one.

    There are tapes of the warmup from 2001 Worlds archived, but unless you know someone at ABC or CBC good luck getting them.
    Last edited by all_empty; 01-30-2011 at 09:35 AM.

  13. #33
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    I've spoken to people who were at the event and they all said she did the 3s/3r combo in warm up. It's wierd that it has never turned up on a video somewhere but there's more to the story than just some waffle from Peggy.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    I was surprised Michelle attempted the 3ltz-3lp at SC. The 3lp attempt was so tiny - barely any lift off the ice and Michelle was never a fast rotater in the air - that it made me think that she never landed that combo cleanly. If she landed it in practice then it the loop part was probably very cheated on the landing.
    They were much better in practice - I saw her land both the 3lz-3lp and 3s-3lp in a practice in Skate Canada. And while I wasn't scrutinizing for underrotations in the pre-COP days, I would have remembered if the cheat on the landing was extreme. I came away from that first practice at Skate Canada thinking that Kwan was well on her way to being Olympic champ. It was quite a shock for her to instead have her worst competitive result in over 6 years at that competition.
    Last edited by Erin; 01-30-2011 at 06:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    Well, difficulty of Irina's combos is way bigger than Michelle's and even though her landing weren't as good she should be given some credit for landing something like 3Lz+3L, even if underroted or lack of flow. This is not only about the loop instead of a toeloop at the end. This is also about the first jump. 3Lz or 3 S instead of toeloop. 3Lz+3L is damn difficult and this is why I admire so much Irina and Miki for landing it.
    I think I saw just about ALL of Irina's comps & I remember very few 3/3's of hers that I was impressed with. Her 3/3 combos were usually messy & those not cheated generally had iffy landings. Her single jumps were usually high & powerful, which is why she got the jumper reputation but Michelle actually had way more clean 3/3's than Irina. IMO even Irina's 3T/3T's weren't better than Michelle's. Michelle's runout on her jumps was usually superior to her competition.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by floskate View Post
    I've spoken to people who were at the event and they all said she did the 3s/3r combo in warm up. It's wierd that it has never turned up on a video somewhere but there's more to the story than just some waffle from Peggy.
    Like I said, I find it hard to believe, but I didn't claim anyone was lying. If you have multiple reliable sources who were there, good on you.

    Interesting that Kwan's camp didn't feel that two 3Lz and a 3T+3T combination were enough in the fall of 2001. Irina's 3S+3Lo was inconsistent, and no one was doing two triple-triple combinations save for Sarah Hughes (and that was only at the Olympics).

    Nowadays, people are winning championship medals with nothing harder than a 3Lo.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by all_empty View Post
    Like I said, I find it hard to believe, but I didn't claim anyone was lying. If you have multiple reliable sources who were there, good on you.

    Interesting that Kwan's camp didn't feel that two 3Lz and a 3T+3T combination were enough in the fall of 2001. Irina's 3S+3Lo was inconsistent, and no one was doing two triple-triple combinations save for Sarah Hughes (and that was only at the Olympics).

    Nowadays, people are winning championship medals with nothing harder than a 3Lo.
    Well, Irina attempted two triple-triples programs several times before 2001 Worlds and once she even succeded (2000 GPF). Michelle and the judges knew that Irina's both triple-triples were much more difficult than Kwan's 3T+3T, maybe that's the reason why Michelle thought about adding another triple-triple.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by all_empty View Post
    Interesting that Kwan's camp didn't feel that two 3Lz and a 3T+3T combination were enough in the fall of 2001.
    Well if Michelle had a real coach for that season instead of Danny Kwan ...

    Michelle was constantly bombarded that season with questions regarding the 3-3 and doing harder 3-3 to match Irina's and possibly Sarah's. In hindsight, if Michelle had skated her own game she would've won the competition for sure, but she let outside pressures to up her ante affected her more than it should. But then again it was THE Olympic and at home to boot, so the pressures on her must've been almost unbearable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikiAndoFan#1 View Post
    Here's one she attempted last year.
    I had never seen this! And this was done just last summer?? She probably would have made a better comeback than Sasha

  20. #40

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    I always loved her 3sal, and I wish she'd focused on learning 3toe...3sal series. She could repeat the 3sal, which is a touch more valuable than 3toe, and you'd think it would take some pressure off of her right hip. It seems like it would have been a more practical avenue to pursue than 3anything 3loop combinations.
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