Downton Abbey--Upstairs/Downstairs, Stiff Upper Lips, and Tea!

[nubka]

He explained it pretty well. Just the fact that he was in her bedroom in the middle of the night to boot would be problematic for her reputation. So if she called for help and someone came and saw him there, it would be a problem. OTOH, if she agreed, there would be likely problems too (and there were and would have been even if he hadn't died--the house is full of people, someone would have seen, not to mention the footman Thomas who knew). So she thought to herself, might as well have some fun. To me this is still coercive.

Did she know that Thomas knew? She should have taken her chances and booted him out anyway. He was pretty cute, though...

[danceronice]

Did she know that Thomas knew? She should have taken her chances and booted him out anyway. He was pretty cute, though...

She didn't know about Thomas, but Pamuk made it clear if she screamed or threw him out HE wouldn't be quiet, and just the fact he was in her room would have been a scandal. Adding to the problem is he was a Turk. Not only is there the racial element, the whole reason he's in England and palling around in the upper levels of society is political. So as soon as he invaded her room, there was no way out that wasn't going to be a major scandal, unless somehow no one ever knew. If it weren't for Edith, no one ever would have.

[Spareoom]

Right. Her family would take her side on the matter, but probably a lot of other people wouldn't, not to mention it doesn't matter if the allegations were true or not; the fact that they're out there is problem enough. He was threatening her and he might not have followed through, but he scared her enough that she felt she had no choice.

It's a little of a complicated matter because she DOES cave pretty easily, but to say that it was totally of her own free will is just not true.

[IceAlisa]

^^^Precisely.

And while she didn't know Thomas was involved (as they all seem to be generally oblivious to Thomas' and O'Brien's dirty deeds), it wouldn't be unreasonable for Mary to think someone of the numerous household might see something.

Should she have booted him out anyway? Certainly.

But as you said nubka, he was And they'd been flirting all day with all sincerity. That complicated things. He was likely played a male model with acting aspirations.

[Wyliefan]

She didn't know about Thomas, but Pamuk made it clear if she screamed or threw him out HE wouldn't be quiet, and just the fact he was in her room would have been a scandal. Adding to the problem is he was a Turk. Not only is there the racial element, the whole reason he's in England and palling around in the upper levels of society is political. So as soon as he invaded her room, there was no way out that wasn't going to be a major scandal, unless somehow no one ever knew.

Which made it a really, really rotten thing for him to do to her. Of course, it's hard to say what one would do in a day and age that were so different -- but I think if I'd been Mary, I'd have taken my chances and given him the boot. I don't care how cute he was -- coercion is ugly clear to the bone.

[nubka]

Which made it a really, really rotten thing for him to do to her. Of course, it's hard to say what one would do in a day and age that were so different -- but I think if I'd been Mary, I'd have taken my chances and given him the boot. I don't care how cute he was -- coercion is ugly clear to the bone.

I agree, and just because he said he would do it doesn't mean that he actually would have. Some would-be-romeos will say anything in the heat of the moment to get their way, especially when seduction is involved...

[IceAlisa]

I agree, and just because he said he would do it doesn't mean that he actually would have. Some would-be-romeos will say anything in the heat of the moment to get their way, especially when seduction is involved...

You know that, having the benefit of 21st century worldliness. Think about Mary's character and the time/place of the show. What does she know of seduction methods?

[terisalyn]

...Thomas, GROW A BRAIN IN YOUR HEAD. Really, this season he is past any sympathy for his situation because yeah, it kind of sucks, but he appears to be utterly incapable of controlling himself in any respect. How did he stay in the closet this long to begin with? (I mean, obviously it's not that dark a closet, not only does O'Brien know, Mrs. Patmore has known for years, not that she could make Daisy get it...)...

Frankly, I was expecting Thomas to hook up with Edith's runaway groom. That WOULD explain his reluctance to marry...

[danceronice]

Frankly, I was expecting Thomas to hook up with Edith's runaway groom. That WOULD explain his reluctance to marry...

I don't think it really needs that level of explanation...Sir Anthony's been married before (he's a widower, and way back in season 1 when he was first courting Edith it does sound rather like the vicar and the Dowager were onto something, she was a hard act to follow), he views himself as crippled (they found out about his arm when he declined an invitation to come shooting on New Year's, something he used to love, without explanation), a lot of OTHER people view him as crippled, he's under pressure from her own family to back out, Edith's entirely well-meaning but not-well-phrased assurances that she doesn't care about the age gap...it wasn't nice of him to wait until the vicar was already reading the service to back out, but he'd been ambivalent about it for a while. He really had convinced himself (with help from Lord Grantham and the Dowager Countess) he'd be ruining Edith's life and making her a nurse, pushing him around in his wheelchair, denying her a chance for a 'real' marriage-basically worked himself into acting like he was Matthew when they thought the paralysis was permanent. In TV Tropes terms, it was a combination of "I Want My Beloved To Be Happy" and the Idiot Ball.

[Latte]

Frankly, I was expecting Thomas to hook up with Edith's runaway groom. That WOULD explain his reluctance to marry...

It also occured to me that the Groom was gay and finelly came to his senses.
I think they might have Bates killed off in prison by his ex roomate.
I am starting to really like Edith lately. Hope she does become a suffergette.
In the previews they had Matthew's mother offering Ethel a job but didn't show if she will take it or not.
Frankly, I was sure she was going to go home and kill herself after she gave up the baby.
And I HATE the baby's grandfather.
Mrs O Brien has been much nicer since she caused Cora to lose the baby, and I think she will be Thomas' downfall which is all good.

[IceAlisa]

The grandfather is a nasty bully. But the relatively sane grandmother said he'd love the boy so I think in her shoes I would have done the same, although a suicide right afterwards wouldn't be far off the menu.

[Reuven]

I
I am starting to really like Edith lately. Hope she does become a suffergette.

Erm, she has been a suffergette on her way to becoming a suffragette. Sorry, couldn’t resist...

[cygnus]

Erm, she has been a suffergette on her way to becoming a suffragette. Sorry, couldn’t resist...

Women got the vote in the UK in 1918 (those over 30 at any rate). It was extended to all women over 21 in 1928. Since it's now 1920 in Downton Abbey, the suffragette cause has more or less been won. They were no longer doing hunger strikes or civil disobedience.

[danceronice]

The grandfather is a nasty bully. But the relatively sane grandmother said he'd love the boy so I think in her shoes I would have done the same, although a suicide right afterwards wouldn't be far off the menu.

Grandpa's a bit of a jerk, and very rude (having a tantrum like that in the Granthams' house was very declasse) but he was also right--Ethel can't offer her son a thing, they can. Even before she wound up a prostitute she really had nothing to offer ("a mother's love" is all well and good but it doesn't put food on the table.) And not only did the grandmother say he'd love the baby, which is undoubtedly true, she also mentioned at the first confrontation (when trying to apologize to Robert and Cora for his behavior) that he was so grief-stricken from losing their only son and only child he was "afraid of his own grief." I don't think he's a bully, just utterly unprepared for dealing with his emotions and lashing out because he doesn't know any other way to deal with it, and here's a target... And if Ethel had any brains (which she's repeatedly demonstrated she doesn't) she'd have given Charlie up the first time.

Women got the vote in the UK in 1918 (those over 30 at any rate). It was extended to all women over 21 in 1928. Since it's now 1920 in Downton Abbey, the suffragette cause has more or less been won. They were no longer doing hunger strikes or civil disobedience.

I think Reuven was just pointing out cleverly that the word is suffRAgette, not "suffERgette"....

[IceAlisa]

Grandpa's a bit of a jerk, and very rude (having a tantrum like that in the Granthams' house was very declasse) but he was also right--Ethel can't offer her son a thing, they can. Even before she wound up a prostitute she really had nothing to offer ("a mother's love" is all well and good but it doesn't put food on the table.) And not only did the grandmother say he'd love the baby, which is undoubtedly true, she also mentioned at the first confrontation (when trying to apologize to Robert and Cora for his behavior) that he was so grief-stricken from losing their only son and only child he was "afraid of his own grief." I don't think he's a bully, just utterly unprepared for dealing with his emotions and lashing out because he doesn't know any other way to deal with it, and here's a target... And if Ethel had any brains (which she's repeatedly demonstrated she doesn't) she'd have given Charlie up the first time.

Oh yes, I forgot about the grandmother Bryant apologizing to the Granthams for him. As to Ethel--not very bright, true, but the decision to give up your child is heart-rending regardless of intelligence. Although I agree with you that she should have given him away as an infant as it would have been less traumatic for him (although in the show he didn't seem at all upset leaving her, usually toddlers are pretty clingy to their primary caregiver. Or perhaps he was used to strangers).

[cygnus]

I think Reuven was just pointing out cleverly that the word is suffRAgette, not "suffERgette"....

I know that, of course- I just chose to ignore it. But others in this thread have said the same thing about Edith- I should have quoted an earlier post.

[danceronice]

Oh yes, I forgot about the grandmother Bryant apologizing to the Granthams for him. As to Ethel--not very bright, true, but the decision to give up your child is heart-rending regardless of intelligence. Although I agree with you that she should have given him away as an infant as it would have been less traumatic for him (although in the show he didn't seem at all upset leaving her, usually toddlers are pretty clingy to their primary caregiver. Or perhaps he was used to strangers).

Well, allowing for attachment even, for all the prattling about a 'mother's love' (ignoring the grandmother's clearly just as capable of providing it), wouldn't a mother who loved their child but could never give him anything other than grinding poverty, poor education, and disease as a lifestyle ultimately give him to a loving family who can provide everything she can't? Even if Ethel didn't opt for prostitution (and I'm not sure why she couldn't go along with the original suggestion--go far away and pass herself off as a Spanish-flu widow) it's pretty clear her son would only be something other than a menial through random good luck (something like Jane's son getting help from Lord Grantham, and there the boy actually had the talent, just no patron). It would have been easier for her to escape her lack of references without a baby as evidence for why she'd been sacked, too. But again, Ethel's never been very bright. Not to mention all about what feels good over what's right, so she doesn't come across to me as REALLY loving her baby, just selfish and wanting him to love her, even if that's not best for him.

[skatingfan5]

Well, allowing for attachment even, for all the prattling about a 'mother's love' (ignoring the grandmother's clearly just as capable of providing it), wouldn't a mother who loved their child but could never give him anything other than grinding poverty, poor education, and disease as a lifestyle ultimately give him to a loving family who can provide everything she can't? .... Not to mention all about what feels good over what's right, so she doesn't come across to me as REALLY loving her baby, just selfish and wanting him to love her, even if that's not best for him.

Perhaps Ethel was being "selfish" but I don't think it was in "wanting [her son] to liver her" so much as that she did love him very much -- and he was all that she had (not going to argue that she hadn't made the best choices that brought about the whole situation). I guess I have more sympathy for her than most do. She can't help not being very smart -- and I do hope that Mrs. Crawley's attempt at rehabilitating her has some success, even if it is only temporary.

[danceronice]

Perhaps Ethel was being "selfish" but I don't think it was in "wanting [her son] to liver her" so much as that she did love him very much -- and he was all that she had (not going to argue that she hadn't made the best choices that brought about the whole situation). I guess I have more sympathy for her than most do. She can't help not being very smart -- and I do hope that Mrs. Crawley's attempt at rehabilitating her has some success, even if it is only temporary.

I'm now wondering if Ethel's 'burned cooking' in the 'next time on Downton Abbey' preview is really that she's incompetent/Isobel can't teach her, or she's being sabotaged by Mrs Bird (who's made her opinion quite clear.) Trailers are always deceptive and I can see (because NO ONE on Downton Abbey is allowed to have smooth sailing) Ethel trying and being made to think she's failed again. And Ethel has fallen for people yanking her chain before, though that WAS O'Brien, master of the setup.

[jlai]

There was a hint at Crawley wanting kids, and Mary had a look that made me think there is something more to that story.

Anyway tonight's episode is heartbreaking