View Poll Results: Which dominant lady champion had most competition during time on top

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  • Witt 1984-1988

    5 1.72%
  • Fleming 1966-1968

    0 0%
  • Hamill 1974-1976

    1 0.34%
  • Fratianne 1977-1979

    0 0%
  • Kwan 1996-2003

    133 45.86%
  • Slutskaya 2000-2005

    18 6.21%
  • Kim 2007-to date

    103 35.52%
  • Asada 2007-2010

    16 5.52%
  • Yamaguchi 1991-1992 (or 1991-1997 extended to pros)

    5 1.72%
  • Ito 1989-1992

    4 1.38%
  • Lipinski 1997-1998

    2 0.69%
  • other

    3 1.03%
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  1. #81
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    Ivanova was much better in figures than Chin which made her more of a threat. The only year Chin was any good in figures was 85 but she was barely landing triples that year, and Ivanova was actually free skating better than her that year (ironically probably the only year this was true). Chin was the much more talented skater IMO but things never all came together for her.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Her spins and spirals should get 0s in GOE though. Other than the occasional spin she does better than usual.


    Miki's back sit spin in particular is gorgeous and lately her spins have been centered in one spot for the most part; her only weak spin is the layback. Also, there are other factors in postive GOE when it comes to spirals such as speed and ice surface covered. Miki actually maintains consistent speed throughout the spiral unlike such skaters as Mao and Nagasu. This is not to say her spiral is superior, but in this particular area she is better.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Ando bombed the short at last years Worlds with 2 falls which is the only reason she lost to Lepisto at last years Worlds (which people who cried about the result continually forget). The only one who did 2 clean or almost clean performances with all triples was Phaneuf who lost the medal (barely) since she is a no name on the World level.
    The thing with last year's worlds was that Lepisto was the complete antithesis of Ando, with Phaneuf having qualities right in the middle. Personally i thought Phaneuf deserved the bronze, though. 2 (just about) solid performances, and a marvelous LP.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Chin was the much more talented skater IMO but things never all came together for her.
    I never quite understood how Tiffany could be injured practically every season between 1984-1987 at some point during the year. Was it her training methods? Training too quickly after an injury? Changes to her body frame?

  5. #85
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    I miss the old days when Kwan used to easily win every FSU poll.

  6. #86
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    I think in the future like this Sotnikova or Lipnitskaya would/should be the winner (unless people are biased against them out of pure dislike, which in Sotnikova's case they probably would be). Those two, if either becomes a dominant skater, have insane competition each year for the next 4-8 years just in their own country. They probably will have more competition at their own Nationals than anyone before them had in the whole world combined, that is how scary the depth of the Russian ladies are shaping up. The next decade atleast will probably have 5 or 6 potential world or Olympic champions skating at Nationals each year on average.

  7. #87
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    I voted for other since nobody on that list had super tough competition. Kwan as the toughest competition ever, is that some kind of attempt at a joke? She would probably come last on my list, just behind Slutskaya who faced all the same people except she faced Kwan who is better than Slutskaya who Kwan faced. Kim Yu Na had much harder competition than Kwan atleast, but I also don't think she would be the toughest ever. Probably if had to pick someone it would be Witt, Yamaguchi, and Fratianne as the hardest/most competition. Or possibly Asada.

  8. #88
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    I would break those down on the list by their real competition and their halfway (not that serious, but still somewhat legit) competition that they faced more than 25% of their career (eg- Lipinski, Sotnikova, and Tiffany Chin types are now out for Kwan, Kim, and Witt for obvious reasons):

    Witt
    Real competition- Thomas, Manley, Sumners, Zayak
    halfway competition- Ivanova, Kadavy, Trenary

    Fleming
    Real competition- nobody
    halfway competition- nobody

    Hamill
    Real competition- Errath, DeLeeuw
    halfway competition- nobody

    Fratianne
    Real competition- Poetzsch
    halfway competition- Watanabe, Lurz

    Kwan
    Real competition- Slutskaya
    halfway competition- Cohen

    Slutskaya
    Real competition- Kwan, Arakawa
    halfway competition- Cohen

    Kim
    Real competition- Asada, Ando, Kostner
    halfway competition- Rochette

    Asada
    Real competition- Asada, Ando, Kostner
    halfway competition- Rochette

    Yamaguchi
    Real competition- Ito, Harding, Trenary
    halfway competition- Kerrigan

    Ito
    Real competition- Yamaguchi, Trenary, Harding
    halfway competition- Kerrigan, Leistner

    Witt has by far the longest list so I guess based on that it would be her. I take back my earlier comment of Kwan having the least competition now, that would obviously be Fleming and by a huge margin. Didn't she win the 68 Olympics by about 1.0 per judge in long program marks despite missing almost every jump.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigB08822 View Post
    Kwan competed as a dominant skater from 1996 to 2004. That took her from her first World title to her last World medal. In that time she was beaten by Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Lipinski, Arakawa and Cohen (silver to her bronze) at Worlds. Outside of Worlds we can add Hughes at the Olympics. There are probably other times Kwan lost to people but I am not going to go through every individual competition. In addition to these skaters she had competition against Bobek, Chen, Gusmeroli, Sokolova, Suguri, Kostner, etc. All fine skaters whose names we would recognize and whom had successes of their own. Kwan even beat Ito in 1996! I know, I know, Ito was well past her prime but I thought that was neat, she placed a very respectable 7th.

    The same could be said of Slutskaya, as well, although she was not as dominant for as long as Kwan was.

    I fail to see how Kim and Asada compare. Kim only ever lost when she had a serious back injury it seems or she was beaten by Asada. Asada only ever lost to Kim who seemed to be favored when going clean. Anyone else who ever beat them had to hope for meltdowns of epic proportions. There really wasn't any competition for either of them outside of each other. They could only beat themselves, really, especially with COP. Now it is different with Asada struggling but I doubt many people would consider her to be having more competition this year, she is just struggling and therefore getting beaten by a lot of people.
    Kwan didn't ever start losing to Arakawa or Cohen until she was a very old women with a broken down body. Prime Kwan wiped the floor with both of those skaters repeatedly. She lost to Maria once by fluke with a meltdown in both programs. Those weren't competition for her, be serious. Kwan's competition was so weak there are some who claim the ISU purposely manipulated Irina's scores to inflate her and invent a rival for Kwan, as there wasn't one who emerged on the ice after Tara's retiring at 14.

    I agree Ando, Kostner, and Rochette aren't that great of competition for Kim and Asada, but they are more competition to them than anyone but Irina (and briefly Tara) was to Michelle.

  10. #90

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    Ironically, the most competitive field that Kim skated in was her last skate: the Russians, a renewed Kostner, Asada (who could have won gold had she not blown the short program). She had to skate perfectly to win in that field and did. But she still lost the gold medal (showing how difficult the competition was). There was no other event Yu Na skated at where she wouldn't have won gold with her two skates in Sochi. Russian bias was, of course, part of it. But that is part of the competition. Michelle also had to skate perfectly in 2000 and 2001 to beat her Russian competitors at Worlds.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    Ironically, the most competitive field that Kim skated in was her last skate: the Russians, a renewed Kostner, Asada (who could have won gold had she not blown the short program). She had to skate perfectly to win in that field and did. But she still lost the gold medal (showing how difficult the competition was). There was no other event Yu Na skated at where she wouldn't have won gold with her two skates in Sochi. Russian bias was, of course, part of it. But that is part of the competition. Michelle also had to skate perfectly in 2000 and 2001 to beat her Russian competitors at Worlds.
    The amazing thing is had Mao done a clean short and Julia skated like the Team competition Kim might not have medaled despite skating cleanly. Who would have ever imagined that.

  12. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by joubertelegant View Post
    Kwan didn't ever start losing to Arakawa or Cohen until she was a very old women with a broken down body. Prime Kwan wiped the floor with both of those skaters repeatedly. She lost to Maria once by fluke with a meltdown in both programs. Those weren't competition for her, be serious. Kwan's competition was so weak there are some who claim the ISU purposely manipulated Irina's scores to inflate her and invent a rival for Kwan, as there wasn't one who emerged on the ice after Tara
    How can Irina be called by many, in another thread, the best ladies technical skater ever (and among the top three by most) and still be called weak competition for Michelle? Michelle also had strong competition at the National level with Cohen and Hughes. Sasha was leading several times after the short program, but Michelle still managed to win 9 titles. And it wasn't because of Nationals judging, either. I'm sure the USFSA was eager to promote the next " American ice princess" and to have a rival for Michelle.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    How can Irina be called by many, in another thread, the best ladies technical skater ever (and among the top three by most) and still be called weak competition for Michelle? Michelle also had strong competition at the National level with Cohen and Hughes. Sasha was leading several times after the short program, but Michelle still managed to win 9 titles. And it wasn't because of Nationals judging, either. I'm sure the USFSA was eager to promote the next " American ice princess" and to have a rival for Michelle.
    Irina was not called by many the best ladies technical skater ever. A blind Irina fanatic who calls themselves irinafanatic started a thread declaring she was, and was laughed at and ridiculed by almost everyone for suggesting this. You yourself don't think she is even close to this, as these were your own words in that thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    No. She had powerful jumps, but they were often a bit wild. I would put her behind a lot of other skaters--Ito, Kim, Harding, Arakawa, Yamaguchi, Gold (from what we've see so far, at least), Kostner. For sheer power and height, I might even add Sonitkova--though, like Gracie, it's a bit too soon to judge her.
    And I did acknowledge Irina was a rival for Michelle, but most of her career she was the only one. And while I don't know your exact views of Irina, many people, mostly Michelle Kwan fans in fact, have suggested she was inflated by TPTB to fabricate a rivalry with Kwan. I have seen this said many times on this forum especialy. This implies Kwan's competition was so weak the ISU literally had to invent a rival after Tara left. This is from the vantage point of Kwan fans themselves.

  14. #94
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    In one poll, Michelle is "the most held up skater" ever. In this poll, she had "no competition" to skate against. So how could someone with no competition be the most held up/over marked skater ever? If all of these people were "no competition" for Michelle, then who should have beat her at what competition when she was "held up/over marked"?

    Makes no sense.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by UGG View Post
    In one poll, Michelle is "the most held up skater" ever. In this poll, she had "no competition" to skate against. So how could someone with no competition be the most held up/over marked skater ever? If all of these people were "no competition" for Michelle, then who should have beat her at what competition when she was "held up/over marked"?

    Makes no sense.
    ROTFL, WTF are you going on about. YOU make no sense. Kwan is winning this poll, so FSU is saying she had the toughest competition of all time, not the weakest of all time. People are saying the complete opposite of her having the weakest competition of all time, as you are claiming. That FSU is deeming her to have the toughest competition of all time is what is the joke; I don't think even think she is the weakest, just not even close to the toughest. While Kim had much more competition than Kwan (IMO) I also don't think she had the toughest, yet she also has a crazy number of votes. This poll, like most FSU polls, is obviously nothing but a popularity contest with everyone picking their favorite even if it makes no sense. On FSU I bet if the poll were "best spinner of all time" Kwan and Kim would still have 100+ votes each if they were included, while Ruh and Kreig would have only 4 or 5 each. Best triple axel of all time would probably also have Kwan and Kim with 100+ votes and Ito and Harding with 4 or 5 each, assuming the two were included. No matter they never so much as did one, it is Kim and Kwan and their invisible haloes.

    Meanwhile you say Kwan was winning most held up skater ever. Umm think again:

    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...er-of-all-time

    Kwan has a mere 40 votes while Sotnikova and Chan have well over 100. Even Sale & Pelletier who were blatantly robbed of an OGM by criminal activity, including a mobster who was taped talking to Marina Anissina on the phone making plans to rob S&P of their gold medal in exchange for Marina getting hers before the dance event even began, have more votes as a held up skater than Kwan does.
    Last edited by joubertelegant; 07-15-2014 at 02:08 AM.

  16. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by joubertelegant View Post
    Irina was not called by many the best ladies technical skater ever. A blind Irina fanatic who calls themselves irinafanatic started a thread declaring she was, and was laughed at and ridiculed by almost everyone for suggesting this. You yourself don't think she is even close to this, as these were your own words in that thread:



    And I did acknowledge Irina was a rival for Michelle, but most of her career she was the only one. And while I don't know your exact views of Irina, many people, mostly Michelle Kwan fans in fact, have suggested she was inflated by TPTB to fabricate a rivalry with Kwan. I have seen this said many times on this forum especialy. This implies Kwan's competition was so weak the ISU literally had to invent a rival after Tara left. This is from the vantage point of Kwan fans themselves.
    It is true that I do not think Irina is the greatest technical skater or even close. But I am just one person. She got consistently high technical marks from the international judges--usually higher than Michelle's technical marks. Many people on that thread put her in the top three ever --after Ito and Kim. She benefited from being the best Russian lady up to that point. To say she was no competition for Michelle is to ignore the fact that she consistently beat her at the Grand Prix and won over her at 2002 worlds where Michelle skated well. You are mixing up who was the better skater with who was the strongest competitor. Irina was an extremely strong competitor--and her record is better or comparable to skaters like Asada, Kostner and Ando, who competed against Kim.

  17. #97
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by joubertelegant View Post
    ROTFL, WTF are you going on about. YOU make no sense. Kwan is winning this poll, so FSU is saying she had the toughest competition of all time, not the weakest of all time. People are saying the complete opposite of her having the weakest competition of all time, as you are claiming. That FSU is deeming her to have the toughest competition of all time is what is the joke; I don't think even think she is the weakest, just not even close to the toughest. While Kim had much more competition than Kwan (IMO) I also don't think she had the toughest, yet she also has a crazy number of votes. This poll, like most FSU polls, is obviously nothing but a popularity contest with everyone picking their favorite even if it makes no sense. On FSU I bet if the poll were "best spinner of all time" Kwan and Kim would still have 100+ votes each if they were included, while Ruh and Kreig would have only 4 or 5 each. Best triple axel of all time would probably also have Kwan and Kim with 100+ votes and Ito and Harding with 4 or 5 each, assuming the two were included. No matter they never so much as did one, it is Kim and Kwan and their invisible haloes.

    Meanwhile you say Kwan was winning most held up skater ever. Umm think again:

    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...er-of-all-time
    Chan was not competing for the ladies. Sotinkova's results are only due to the Olympics this past year. So if you eliminate the men's competition and the 2014 Olympics, Kwan is the most held up ladies skater according to FSU. I don't agree with that at all...especially since she didn't have any competition when she was competing.
    Last edited by UGG; 07-15-2014 at 03:59 AM.

  18. #98
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    Why does kwan win this poll??

    Kwans competition was mainly slutskaya. but i guess you can say that arakawa, cohen and lipinski were competition too.

    Kim had Asada, Ando, Kostner, Sotnikova, Lipnitskaya. Even Rachael Flatt nearly beat her once.

    Asada not being as great as a competitor as Yuna probably had more competition to worry about though.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8ingcoach View Post
    Why does kwan win this poll??

    Kwans competition was mainly slutskaya. but i guess you can say that arakawa, cohen and lipinski were competition too.

    Kim had Asada, Ando, Kostner, Sotnikova, Lipnitskaya. Even Rachael Flatt nearly beat her once.

    Asada not being as great as a competitor as Yuna probably had more competition to worry about though.
    Well, if you count Sotnikova, Lipnitskaya and Flatt for Yu Na Kim, you have to count Bobek, Lu Chen, Hughes for Kwan...

  20. #100

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    I'm puzzled by those who feel Kwan had little competition in her career. IMO Kwan had quite stiff competition throughout her entire career. There was never a single year when she just coasted into Worlds as the favorite and won easily. At 1996 Worlds, she faced Lu Chen in what is still considered one of the greatest ladies' battles ever. Then in 1997-1998 came her rivalry with Lipinski, which was one of the most intense ladies rivalries of all time IMO. Anyone who thinks Lipinski was no competition wasn't watching her in those years . . . And as soon as that was over, Kwan faced the Slutskaya/Butyrskaya duo. Perhaps it shouldn't have been any contest, but Kwan still had to put out very high-level programs to beat these two at 2000/2001 Worlds. All three skaters (Kwan, Slute, Bute) had 6- or 7-triple programs at 2000 Worlds. And in 2001-2002, Sarah Hughes emerged with her triple/triples, not to mention Sasha Cohen, who challenged Kwan artistically. The list goes on . . . Kwan also faced Arakawa in her peak years. If that is not competition, I don't know what is.

    I think Kwan's competition is lightly regarded because IJS has changed the sport so much and affected assessments of those earlier skaters. Everyone now has an issue with Michelle/Tara flutzing, Irina telegraphing, Sarah/Tara underrotating loop combos, Sasha's supposedly weak basics. And the pre-IJS programs mostly don't hold up well artistically (too empty). However if you look at the events by what was standard at that time, I don't see how you can conclude other than that Michelle faced down one serious threat after another. Which is what made her so great.

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