View Poll Results: Which dominant lady champion had most competition during time on top

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  • Witt 1984-1988

    5 1.73%
  • Fleming 1966-1968

    0 0%
  • Hamill 1974-1976

    1 0.35%
  • Fratianne 1977-1979

    0 0%
  • Kwan 1996-2003

    133 46.02%
  • Slutskaya 2000-2005

    18 6.23%
  • Kim 2007-to date

    102 35.29%
  • Asada 2007-2010

    16 5.54%
  • Yamaguchi 1991-1992 (or 1991-1997 extended to pros)

    5 1.73%
  • Ito 1989-1992

    4 1.38%
  • Lipinski 1997-1998

    2 0.69%
  • other

    3 1.04%
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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Well that is what I was thinking. Who had the hardest competition. I probably am the one who worded it wrong.
    Well to be fair, I now see that you used the word "toughest" in your post but I only read the poll which said "most."
    -Brian
    "Michelle would never be caught with sausage grease staining her Vera Wang." - rfisher

  2. #22
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    I think Kwan, especially in her own country. There was Cohen, Lipinski, Hughes, and even Bobek sometimes. Not to mention Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Chen..

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I would probably pick Kim or Asada.

    I definitely wouldnt pick Kwan. Slutskaya would have been a 5 time World Champion if Kwan hadnt existed which already says enough about that era (with all due respect to Irina). Slutskaya had tougher competition than Kwan only since she faced Kwan who is obviously better than Slutskaya who Kwan faced, LOL!

    I wouldnt pick Ito or Yamaguchi either. The great Ito was held back by the overemphasis on figures and politics early on, then by injuries and bad luck later. Yamaguchi faced Ito in her twilight years when she ran into problems, a great Harding once in a blue moon, then went pro and mostly faced easily manageable competition again.

    Witt I might consider too I suppose. The mid to late 80s was pretty competitive and diverse group, taking into account figures.
    In case of Kwan/Slutskaya rivarly (in years when Irina became a true rival for Michelle so from 1999/2000 season) remember that Irina won MOST of the competitions where they met each other, the only few times when Kwan beat Slutskaya were Worlds 2000 and 2001 and that's too bad for Irina since she almost always beat Kwanat GP series and other competitions. Kwan was VERY lucky that her few wins happend when it really mattered. Just look at the results of competitons held between 2000 and 2002. Then Irina was ill but when she returned again she beat Kwan almost always, this time including Worlds.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigB08822 View Post
    I don't see how Kim and Asada have had more competition than each other, really. Let's be honest, if they skate to their potential the only ones who could ever beat them were each other. Rochette wasn't coming close, Ando was always going to be a distant 3rd. The US ladies had no one to scare them and Russia has been non existent. Kostner can't stay on her feet until this season. That is a silly pick, IMO.
    Well, Rochette was a threat in the 08-09 and 09-10 seasons, I mean she beat Mao at 09 Worlds and nearly tied her score at the 10 Olympics. And I'm not sure I'd call Ando the distant 3rd because she was a jumping machine in 06-07 when she beat both Yuna and Mao to win Worlds, and then at the 09 worlds she beat Mao again. And last season Yuna beat Miki at the GPF by just a few points, and Mao didn't even qualify. And now this year Miki once again qualified for the GPF, and won the FS there, and Mao did not qualify and then at Japanese Nationals she finished ahead of a Mao skating well. Also, let's not forget Mirai who won the SP at Worlds last season.

    It is true that Yuna at her best is head and shoulders above the rest of the field, but Yuna has only skated one clean competition in her career - the 2010 Olympics. Mao from 05-07 could outjump everyone but now, even when she skates her best, skaters like Miki, Joannie (if she ever comes back), Mirai, Carolina, Laura and even Alissa and Kanako are threats.

    With less pressure and no injuries, Kim probably would have won everything in her senior career by a large margin, but she did have tons of pressure and was battling injuries for a long time, so it made things harder for her to stay on top. This combined with the fact that Asada, Rochette, and Ando have been rather inconsistent over the last few seasons mixes things up, as do the European skaters like Kostner and Lepisto who the judges will reward with huge scores if they skate well, and some Americans like Meissner in her heyday and Nagasu last season are capable of bothering Mao and Yuna from time to time.

  5. #25
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    Not just because I was a huge fan but this one really is Kwan, IMO.

    For a 10 year period her name was always mentioned in the top 3 ladies in the World. The other two would always change but Michelle was consistently (and deservedly) always mentioned as a threat to take the title at any competition she entered. Irina would be my next choice, but she wasn't on top for as long as Kwan and didn't win as many medals. (though love and miss her, too!) After Irina I would pick Witt.

    Kim/Asada hasn't lasted as long as the 3 above quite yet, and didn't have as many peope on their level to compete with as the above 3, IMO.

  6. #26
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    Kwan, as an obvious choice.

    I'd like to think Witt too, because she had her fair share of rivals especially from the American women, in the mid to late 80's. However, out of her 4 world titles the only one IMO that was most convincing was the one in '87. She was successful, but very very lucky indeed.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    In case of Kwan/Slutskaya rivarly (in years when Irina became a true rival for Michelle so from 1999/2000 season) remember that Irina won MOST of the competitions where they met each other, the only few times when Kwan beat Slutskaya were Worlds 2000 and 2001 and that's too bad for Irina since she almost always beat Kwanat GP series and other competitions. Kwan was VERY lucky that her few wins happend when it really mattered. Just look at the results of competitons held between 2000 and 2002. Then Irina was ill but when she returned again she beat Kwan almost always, this time including Worlds.
    Michelle held a 15-10 head-2-head record over Slutskaya in ISU competitions. I'll refer to my post from way back:
    For me the only problem I have with "Wait until their rivals mature for the head-2-heads to count" logic is that it discounts many quality wins like in the case of Kwan vs. Slutskaya.
    As for my vote... there's no question

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166
    It is true that Yuna at her best is head and shoulders above the rest of the field, but Yuna has only skated one clean competition in her career - the 2010 Olympics. Mao from 05-07 could outjump everyone but now, even when she skates her best, skaters like Miki, Joannie (if she ever comes back), Mirai, Carolina, Laura and even Alissa and Kanako are threats.
    Skating clean is no longer the standard under CoP. CoP has de-emphasized the clean program. Regardless of what happens in the SP, Yu Na's proven herself as a remarkable free skater. Her intangibles, CoP savvy, and reliable triple triple combo have typically allowed her a healthy 1-2 fall advantage per competition over the other skaters.

    With less pressure and no injuries, Kim probably would have won everything in her senior career by a large margin, but she did have tons of pressure and was battling injuries for a long time, so it made things harder for her to stay on top. This combined with the fact that Asada, Rochette, and Ando have been rather inconsistent over the last few seasons mixes things up, as do the European skaters like Kostner and Lepisto who the judges will reward with huge scores if they skate well, and some Americans like Meissner in her heyday and Nagasu last season are capable of bothering Mao and Yuna from time to time.
    How many of those rivals have finsihed above Yu Na in a competition, though? 2? Ando and Asada.

  9. #29
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    Joannie and Suguri finished above Yu-Na at 2006 Skate Canada (her senior debut) and Kostner also edged her at 2008 Worlds.

    Not meant to challenge the above post, but speaking of 2011 Worlds I don’t think it would be a walk in the park for Yu-Na, given that it’s being held in Tokyo. Last time she competed in Japan (2009 GPF), she barely beat Ando after the second leg of her 3-3 got downgraded, the only such downgrade she has received in her career. And even if Yu-Na skate relatively clean, I think they would keep things closer so that it wouldn’t be a foregone conclusion too early.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwantumleap View Post
    Michelle held a 15-10 head-2-head record over Slutskaya in ISU competitions. I'll refer to my post from way back:


    As for my vote... there's no question
    I wrote about time when Irina WAS a contender and a rival for Michelle. And she started so in 1999/2000. Before, Irina wasn't really a threat for Michelle so it isn't really fair, Irina wasn't just in that level until 1999/2000 season. When we take into consideration 2000-2001 Irina usually easily beat Kwan with only exeption at Worlds. And Kwan had to pull great seven triples performance with a triple-triple to beat Slutskaya and it happend very seldom (Worlds 2000 and 2001).

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    It is true that Yuna at her best is head and shoulders above the rest of the field, but Yuna has only skated one clean competition in her career - the 2010 Olympics. Mao from 05-07 could outjump everyone but now, even when she skates her best, skaters like Miki, Joannie (if she ever comes back), Mirai, Carolina, Laura and even Alissa and Kanako are threats.
    This isn't really true. For one, the European ladies haven't ever skated to their potential. Second, Mao hasn't even skated close to her best recently so it's hard to evaluate based on this season alone.

  12. #32
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    I think perhaps Kwan or Asada... Not only did they have stiff competition internationally, but also nationally. They had to be on top at more competitions during the seasons, as they had to place top three at their Nationals with a deep field.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    I wrote about time when Irina WAS a contender and a rival for Michelle. And she started so in 1999/2000. Before, Irina wasn't really a threat for Michelle so it isn't really fair, Irina wasn't just in that level until 1999/2000 season. When we take into consideration 2000-2001 Irina usually easily beat Kwan with only exeption at Worlds. And Kwan had to pull great seven triples performance with a triple-triple to beat Slutskaya and it happend very seldom (Worlds 2000 and 2001).
    Well, Kwan is younger than Slutskaya by a year. Kwan won her 1st US title the week Slutskaya won her 1st Euro title. And Kwan consistently beat Slutskaya from 1993 to 2000 (Slutskaya was 21 !). So, IMO, it's fair to compare their head-to-head, even in the younger years.
    It's not as if Kwan was 4 years older than Slutskaya.

  14. #34

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    Which dominant lady singles skater had the most competition while on top
    Clearly Gizmo should win. She's been around twice as long as Kwan, therefore she's had twice as many competitors. And she looks like a dominant lady who spends alot of time on top

  15. #35

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    ^ No, Gizmo is the same competitor spread out twice as long, therefore only halfway up the standings

  16. #36
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    Smile

    Michelle

    Does FSU plan to have a Kwan icon/smiley?

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    This isn't really true. For one, the European ladies haven't ever skated to their potential. Second, Mao hasn't even skated close to her best recently so it's hard to evaluate based on this season alone.
    Mao skated quite well at Japanese Nationals and barely edged out Kanako while Miki beat both handily. To me, that says a lot. Mao is not the skater she used to be...

  18. #38
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    Miki was insanely overscored at Japanese Nationals even under inflated National scoring. Her performance was no better than her LP at the GP final which scored something like 15 points lower. Those PCS and GOE on spins, LOL! Mao suffered from only having 3 or 4 credited triples. She skated pretty well but can still do alot better.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Well, Kwan is younger than Slutskaya by a year. Kwan won her 1st US title the week Slutskaya won her 1st Euro title. And Kwan consistently beat Slutskaya from 1993 to 2000 (Slutskaya was 21 !). So, IMO, it's fair to compare their head-to-head, even in the younger years.
    It's not as if Kwan was 4 years older than Slutskaya.
    I guess the point of the other poster is that Irina wasnt that good a skater before 2000. Which is true. Nobody considered Irina as a threat to win any major events before the 2000 Grand Prix final. She was just one of a bunch of bronze hopefuls in some major events, and definitely no threat to Michelle.

    IMO Michelle never really had more than one threat at once:

    96 season: Chen was the only threat, and she bombed all the events except Worlds.

    97 and 98 seasons: Lipinski was the only threat, and even she was no threat to a clean Michelle (except Nagano which shocked everyone).

    99 season: Michelle had no threat even though she found a way to give away Worlds that year.

    2000-2002 seasons. Irina was the only threat.

    2003 season: Michelle had no threat.

    Only starting in 2004 did Michelle for the first time have multiple threats with Arakawa, Cohen, and Slutskaya. However that is because she was by now past her prime due to age, a falling apart body with a bad hip, and a new scoring system. It didnt really have anything to do with the level of competition IMO.

    So breaking it down on average I could never vote for her as the one who had the strongest competition.
    Last edited by judgejudy27; 01-19-2011 at 07:05 PM.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtherlore View Post
    Joannie and Suguri finished above Yu-Na at 2006 Skate Canada (her senior debut) and Kostner also edged her at 2008 Worlds.
    Suguri's really never been competition for Yu-Na since she became dominant. This thread calls into question the competition of the most dominant while they were dominant.

    The judging in 2008 Worlds was very curious and that may give your point about 2011 Worlds more credibility. I think Here's an excerpt from Sonia Bianchetti's 2008 Worlds review..

    In my opinion Yuna Kim was by far the best skater that night. Still, her marks in the components did not reflect this. Her total score was 58.56, just 0.4 ahead of Kostner and almost 1.03 less than Asada. Had she been marked correctly, although she was only fifth in the short program, she might have won the World title.
    I think the judges have really wanted Kostner as world champion for a while now. Kostner has many great qualities about her skating, but unless she's able to overcome the sea of hurdles in her way, when all is said and done I don't think we'll look back on her as having been a major factor. I hope she's not swept in to the category of what could have been.

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